Some things that strike me....

[tgcali]

Hello all, new gal on the block here, so please excuse me if any of my thoughts have been discussed to death already.

When I'm reading a book there are always one or more things that jump out at me that I can't stop thinking about.

In FR I found that I couldn't get past, if you will, Liand's discovery of the Orcrest-actually it was more that he was led to it than discovered it. I find ( though I have no specific reason for it ) that the Orcrest, and the uses it has/can be put to either is or potentially could be very significant.

Like I said, I have no particular or specific reason for this feeling. It's just one of the things that really jumps at me in this book and I can't shake it.

Another thing would be Jeremiah.

I want to know if finding out who all the people/beings he was in contact with in the Land, and what those contacts entailed, before he was transported there by Roger or Joan, is at all significant.

Or, was he even actually in contact with people/beings in the Land? I mean that information comes from the illusion of a healed Jeremiah.
Is the croyel causing the true Jeremiah to share part of himself, or is it all part of the illusion, and therefore none of what he says should be trusted.
A conundrum that.

And finally, Mahttiir(if that's spelled right!).

This guy is unusal for the Ramen. He comes across more adventurous and bloodthirsty than his kinsmen.
Then he's blinded.
So, if he's blind, how is it he can, for the most part, act like he still has sight? He seems to see and know things that he really shouldn't. Where does that come from? Again, does it have any significance?

Just curious.....

[emotional leper]

I'd chalk up Marthiir's ability to get around fairly well without eyes to being an older Ramen who has much experience getting around by sound and touch due to his tracking skills.

Good to see you.

[alanm]

I believe that Marthiir had some hurtloam applied to him. We know from Hile Troys experience that he got his sight back with the application of hurtloam, maybe this has happened here, although there is no specific reference to it.

[Akasri]

I was thinking Marthiir was also able to see somewhat due to Earthpower - didn't Linden cleanse Kevin's Dirt from them a couple times since he was blinded?

I think it's a combination of limited Earthsight, heightened hearing/smell, etc.

[Relayer]

Welcome to the Watch!

I agree about Mahrtiir, I think it's a combination of healthsense and his native ability to sense his surroundings.

Is the croyel causing the true Jeremiah to share part of himself, or is it all part of the illusion, and therefore none of what he says should be trusted.
A conundrum that.

And an excellent question... the same goes for Roger. How much of what he says while pretending to be TC is true? At least some of it is... some things he told Linden were later "confirmed" by the Harrow or Infelice. If anything they say can be trusted

[wayfriend]

Hi!

I personally don't see a large significance in the orcrest. What I see is that Liand attaining an effective stature to match his potential one: he is "coming into his own". He's becoming what he would have become in an earlier age of the land - a powerful gravelingas. But I don't see this going anywhere beyond that, not unless Liand gets some role to play which he doesn't have yet.

I, too, wonder about Jeremiah. I wonder if the story of his presence in the Land was a lie. If it was, to what end? The answer to that probably relies on a more significant question: were Jeremiah's talents his talents, or the croyel's, or where they given to Jeremiah by the croyel. If Jeremiah actually has no power, then this would explain the need for the lie about Jeremiah's being in the Land.

[Relayer]

That's a good question too, which then leads to: how was Jeremiah able to build all his constructs in the 'real' world? Or is it possible that the croyel's power was able to be transferred across dimensions.

I suspect this his talent... if the croyel could build those traps and things, Foul wouldn't need Jere, except as prisoner/bait. Although messing w/ Linden would sure be fun for him

[IrrationalSanity]

Everything we've seen about the Croyel leads me to believe that they focus whatever native abilities thier "host" has, and leverage them for their own gain. Thus the Kemper's theurgy, the agule's enhanced winter, and Jeremiah's constructions.

What I don't believe is that the croyel actually enhances these abilities in any way. Rather, by effectively possessing their host, they operate them without any self-imposed strictures, be they intellectual, ethical, or emotional.

[I'm Murrin]

One question that occured to me with regard to Jeremiah was, why did Roger take Linden out of the way while he built his box? Was it just as he said, leaving him alone while he got on with it, or was it because the croyel couldn't do it itself, and had to release some of its control over Jeremiah?

[Akasri]

What I don't believe is that the croyel actually enhances these abilities in any way. Rather, by effectively possessing their host, they operate them without any self-imposed strictures, be they intellectual, ethical, or emotional.

Wasn't there something said about the croyel to the effect that people accepted power or knowledge from the croyel in return for giving up their freedom?

I can't remember the exact wording, but it seemed like the host got something out of the arrangement. This was mentioned in ToT and also in FR if I remember right, I just can't remember the exact wording.

[MsMary]

I'd chalk up Marthiir's ability to get around fairly well without eyes to being an older Ramen who has much experience getting around by sound and touch due to his tracking skills.

That would be my assumption, as well.

I believe that Marthiir had some hurtloam applied to him. We know from Hile Troys experience that he got his sight back with the application of hurtloam, maybe this has happened here, although there is no specific reference to it.

In this case SRD went to great pains to say, through Linden's thoughts, that his sight would not be restored, so I don't think that happened in this case. Also, there are repeated references to the fact that he can no longer see.

[tgcali]

One question that occured to me with regard to Jeremiah was, why did Roger take Linden out of the way while he built his box? Was it just as he said, leaving him alone while he got on with it, or was it because the croyel couldn't do it itself, and had to release some of its control over Jeremiah?

I hadn't taken it that far. Interesting insight. Thanks!

[wayfriend]

What I don't believe is that the croyel actually enhances these abilities in any way. Rather, by effectively possessing their host, they operate them without any self-imposed strictures, be they intellectual, ethical, or emotional.

Wasn't there something said about the croyel to the effect that people accepted power or knowledge from the croyel in return for giving up their freedom?

I can't remember the exact wording, but it seemed like the host got something out of the arrangement. This was mentioned in ToT and also in FR if I remember right, I just can't remember the exact wording.

Those who bargain thus for life or might with the croyel are damned beyond redemption.

So, maybe the croyel give knowledge, or maybe they give power more directly, we cannot say.

Also, I don't remember as the croyel controlled Kasreyn. That might not be a basic part of the arrangement.

But Jeremiah was not damned, she insisted to herself. He was not. He was not like Kasreyn of the Gyre: he had made no bargain. He could not have made one. Lost within himself, he more closely resembled the arghuleh of the Northron Climbs, mindless ice-beasts which had simply been enslaved by the croyel. The bargain here was Lord Foul's, not Jeremiah's.

Still her son was effectively possessed. The Ranyhyn had done what they could to forewarn her.

This seems to imply it's, as they say, not so simple. The croyel can enslave, but only when they can.

This quote seems to also reinforce the idea that Jeremiah is not mentally present, even when so enslaved. Any will, any intelligence, that we saw, was produced by the croyel. It would stand to reason that, if Jeremiah had any powers, he is not using them voluntarilly ... just like when Linden possessed Covenant to weild the ring, the croyel possesses Covenant and uses Jeremiah's powers.

If he has any. That is, if they are Jeremiah's in the first place.

[High Lord Tolkien]

I wonder what unfair "bargain" an already tortured child like Jeremiah would have made?
I expect SRD to make us incredibly sad when he gets to that part.

[IrrationalSanity]

I'd chalk up Marthiir's ability to get around fairly well without eyes to being an older Ramen who has much experience getting around by sound and touch due to his tracking skills.

That would be my assumption, as well.

I believe that Marthiir had some hurtloam applied to him. We know from Hile Troys experience that he got his sight back with the application of hurtloam, maybe this has happened here, although there is no specific reference to it.

In this case SRD went to great pains to say, through Linden's thoughts, that his sight would not be restored, so I don't think that happened in this case. Also, there are repeated references to the fact that he can no longer see.

He does get some perception from the health sense, but hurtloam cannot restore eyes that have been obliterated. Hile Troy's vision wasn't exactly sight either, though he was able to function as if it were. Even he was effectively crippled visually when his face was splashed with gore, even though there were no eyes to destroy.

[tgcali]

I expect SRD to make us incredibly sad when he gets to that part.

Unfotunately, I'm thinking so myself.

Although, SRD tends to have a knack for twisting anything I think is going to happen into something totally different. Happens in every book. Love it.

By the by; How do ya'll get those little titles in there under your names? I show as 'Servant of the Land' but I can think of other things to say....

[wayfriend]

By the by; How do ya'll get those little titles in there under your names? I show as 'Servant of the Land' but I can think of other things to say....

Click "Profile" up top. Edit the Custim Rank. Click Submit at the bottom.

You are not allowed to outrank Jay, Vain, Syl, or Cail.

[I'm Murrin]

Note: I think you have to make 5 posts first.

[tgcali]

Thanks for the info.

I'm not so sure about Liand and the Orcrest being so benign. I think there may be some sneaky going on there. Kind of along the lines of a false red herring.
Wouldn't be the first time.

[Stark Raver]

I believe that Marthiir had some hurtloam applied to him. We know from Hile Troys experience that he got his sight back with the application of hurtloam, maybe this has happened here, although there is no specific reference to it.

Troy couldn't get his sight back, he never had sight or even eyes. He was born blind. He knew that the Land was real, not illusion, because he experienced color and vision without having had prior experience. Maybe his lack of eyes allowed this stuff to happen.

It is a shame that the hurtloam doesn't do the same with mahirttir. I had originally put it down to the bandages over his eyes. I seem to remember troy being able to see through things that were in front of thim. Maybe Marhrttir's prior experience with site doesn't allow him to see without eyes.

It would be cool if Roger made a bargain with the croyel just to be able to experience regular consciousness. Jeremiah can probably bargain within his own mind if the croyel can find his essence or whatever. Even if Jeremiah doesn't think in language the croyel could still bargain with the Jeremiah's base appetites, hungers, and pain. Maybe Jeremiah made a deal with the croyel to escape Fouls torture. The croyel is just doing Foul's bidding isn't it?