Unearned Knowledge

[Sunbaneglasses]

With the chrons emphasis on the dangers of unearned knowledge and power will Lindens running around willy nilly wielding powers that she does not completely understand and such things as The Theomachs casual knowledge dropping come into play as factor in the last chronicles? The chapter with Berek where The Theomach just casually drops The Seven Words seemed odd to me.

[IrrationalSanity]

Here, the knowledge was earned, but was somehow suppressed. Theo just unlocked what was already in Berek's mind.

[Sunbaneglasses]

I was talking about Linden, all she really knows is that when she utters the words she becomes more powerful.

[IrrationalSanity]

The initial learning of the seven words was Berek's, and they were passed quite openly throughout history to those whom the bearer felt were worthy, or used quite openly against those who were enemies.

The initial use of the words came with the awakening of Earthpower in the land. Linden's knowledge of Earthpower is already far greater than Berek's, so giving her the words was quite reasonable. (That they impart limits along with the power doesn't hurt...)

I noticed that they also had some effect on the Staff, and on Linden herself. I also noticed that Theo waited until RC and J had left. Either he didn't want to reveal the words to them, or he didn't want them to know that he had revealed them to Linden and/or Berek.

[Fist and Faith]

Yeah, could be she's earned it through her work at the end of WGW.

[lucimay]

hell yes she earned it.

[drew]

She's going to battleing dangers from the past and present.

She needs all the power, old and new she can get.

[lurch]

Well, yea,,Lindens arc is one of earning knowledge,,but don't be beguiled that that is the " end"...its what she does with the Knowledge that remains to be seen. That is the mystery we are left with at end of FR.." Linden, what have you done?"...Bringing TC to tangibleness is just one piece to the over all puzzle being put together. As valuable as each piece may be,,what we see in the final display of the jigsaw puzzle,,will be well earned,,but of a realm beyond the sum of all the pieces.

Just remember earning knowledge,,has to include the tragic as well as the beautiful,,,as in Linden's efforts with Berek's dieing and wounded..

[Ur Dead]

The Theomach would have never explain the seven words in front of Linden, if he felt that she didn't need it. She earn the right to know by being Roger's Elohim Shield. The Theomach deemed as much because in the end it protected the Arch fom manipulation and destruction. Plus is added a little flair to the history of the Land. (of course some people will debate that.)

[MrKABC]

Remember, "Unearned knowledge rules its wielder, to the cost of both."

Linden's in a lot of trouble.

[Ur Dead]

/nudges Wayfriend

Hey.. Did somebody THOOLAH in here??

[emotional leper]

/nudges Wayfriend

Hey.. Did somebody THOOLAH in here??

Oh, god, and all over the floor!

[FAP]

How did linden earn her knowledge? As far as I can tell she has very little of it. She has an intuitive sense of how to invoke and crudely direct power but very little knowledge of it.

Berek and his descendants made a study of Earthpower to the point that Kevin lived centuries like others lived decades and he could nuke the land. Linden can't even form a forbidding. She admits to her lack of knowledge when Roger tell her to put up at barrier at Garroting Deep.

Linden has her heath sense, the staff of law, and now the Krill, which are ALL very power tools for invoking and directing power but she has very little knowledge or lore of that power.

[IrrationalSanity]

I had a very nice response composed for this, but the system ate it.

The short version is, Lore has three legs: Talent, Tools, and Training. Linden has more of the first two than just about any Lord in the Land's history, while Kevin had more of the third, at least as regards Earthpower.

Linden, on the other hand DOES have training - in Health and Science, and this training has served her in the usage of Earthpower very well. Theo's giving her the 7 words is, in this instance, no worse than a professor giving the Pythagorean Theorem to an advanced Geometry student.

[Ur Dead]

FAP , I'm going to take Linden's side on this one.

How did she get the knowledge to fuse Vain and Findail together?
That knowledge was unearned, yet she did it. it was Vain who told her to embrace himself and Findail.

How did she know on how to heal the Land from the Sunbane.
That was unearned knowledge yet she did it. She based it on her outland's medical knowledge and using Wild Magic.

So is Lore a means to wield power thru one's own desires?

The New Lords after the RoD never studied the Earthpower to gain lore.
It was given to them by Kevin's Wards. That is unearned knowledge. It took time for the New Lords to master their unearned knowledge. But it was accepted.

The only "unearned knowledge" that Linden got was the seven words from the Theomach.

Linden specializes in a special form of Earthpower. She has shown she can naturally wield such power. She doesn't know Kevin's Lore because she never got the chance to study them at the Lorestat. If she did, she would be more powerful than Kevin. For Pete's sakes she is a medical doctor! How long does it take for somebody to go out and have a medical practice? She gots the smarts.

From these Chronicles I can surmize than Linden Avery has wielded Wild Magic and Earthpower that far supassed Kevin's power at the RoD! Yet she hasn't fallen totally into despair. She doesn't know specific lore incantations but she has shown that she is very much like the "Unfettered"

It it may be realize later that much of Kevin's Lore may have come from the Unfettered of his time. And Kevin being the High Lord recorded what the Unfettered taught him. Like Mhoram's teaching his new knowledge to the other Lords right after defeating the Giant Raver.

Linden has done remarkable deeds in the short time she has been in the Land. She is an exceptional character in an unusual predictament.

[FAP]

"How did she get the knowledge to fuse Vain and Findail together? "

My take is that vain did most of the work and she supplied the raw wild magic power.

"How did she know on how to heal the Land from the Sunbane. "

I thought it was largely intuitive. The staff in the WGW was described as being semi-sentient. I figured she pretty much told the staff what to do and the staff figured out hwo to do it using the aspect of the elohim fused into it.

"So is Lore a means to wield power thru one's own desires?"
NO. Lore is the understanding of power.

"The New Lords after the RoD never studied the Earthpower to gain lore. "

Yes they did. They set up an entire school and process of scholarship to study the lore in Kevin's wards. Only until they had gained mastery of the information in the ward would they have the understanding to find the next ward. Only by practice, trial and error, and the study of the earthpower invoked by the information in the ward would they gain more Lore. Without that understanding they have information but no Lore.

"Linden specializes in a special form of Earthpower. She has shown she can naturally wield such power."

So does the stonedowner. Linden has Healthsense, a peculiar kind of health sense, but I don't think she naturally wields power. She has an affinity for the staff because she was part of it's creation.

" If she did, she would be more powerful than Kevin."

What makes you say that. Kevin was born of an Earthpowerful bloodline. Linden has a peculiar healthsense and an intuitive affinity for a very powerful tool. Minus that tool she's very weak.

"From these Chronicles I can surmize than Linden Avery has wielded Wild Magic and Earthpower that far supassed Kevin's power at the RoD! "

Unknown. The largest power she has wielded was during the resurrection and that was only possible because the Law of Life (or possibly death, or both) had previously been broken. Just as the works of the new lords were made easier by the breaking of the Law of Death so was Linden's way made easier, perhaps possible.

"It it may be realize later that much of Kevin's Lore may have come from the Unfettered of his time."

What makes you think it didn't come from the study by him, his fore-bearers, and the other lords of the times?

"Like Mhoram's teaching his new knowledge to the other Lords right after defeating the Giant Raver. "

Wait so Mhoram studied and learned lore on his own but Kevin didn't. I think you're underestimating Kevin and the other highlords. Loric made the Krill, that shows some very deep understanding of lore.


"Linden has done remarkable deeds in the short time she has been in the Land. She is an exceptional character in an unusual predicament. "

Agreed. I just argue she's not very knowledgeable of the power she uses. In essence she can smash a wall but not make one.

[IrrationalSanity]

Oh - one of the things I had in my original reply that got eaten (in fact, it was the first point)

One of my favorite quotes from the first Chronicles was when Amok said "Desecration requires no lore... It comes readily to any willing hand." (I don't have the text in front of me so I may be a word or two off). It is clear that Linden's hand is not willing of desecration. Revenge, perhaps, but not desecration.

[The Humbled]

While I'm no THOOLAH member, I'll say that her hand seems more willing for desecration now than ever before.

Her motivation for her son's rescue remains the same, but her shift in operating from love to revenge carries with it an ominous tome of despite. SRD loves to play with motivation; intention is critical. If she continues to rely on hate to guide her, it won't end well, I'm afraid.

The Harrow mentions the "unfettered wrath at the center of [her] heart", as a power that he desires- it's enough to give me pause.

[wayfriend]

[ It looks like the server is functioning again. It ate my earlier response, as well. ]

I wonder if Mr. KABC can point to any specific examples.

Taking that quote about unearned knowledge in context, it's not talking about information. Telling someone where the nearest restroom is doesn't create any peril for anyone.

No, it's the knowledge of how to produce power that is the subject. Perhaps this is one and the same as lore. Bannoer said lore was a weapon, that could "turn and wound the one which weilds it". Maybe this is saying the same thing.

I think it's most important to note that we are not talking about inate power, either. Power which comes from oneself, which one struggles to learn to use on one's own, is not included in this admonition. Such knowledge of power is discovered, not given. The process of discovery earns it.

Was Caer Caveral's addition to the Staff of Law unearned knowledge? No. The Forestal gave her the capability, the potential. Linden worked it out on her own.

The same, I would say, pertains to the Seven Words. It's just information. Linden figured out how to use it herself - and she already knew how to use Earthpower.

The best example of unearned knowledge is Roger, with his skurj-hand. If Kastenessen had merely given it to him, and left him to sort out how to use it himself, then there would be no peril to Roger (of this kind). But that probably did not happen. Kastenessen also probably showed him how to do a lot of things as well. It took Linden and Covenant much longer to learn how to use power, whole serieses of books. Roger seemingly learned it right away. So Roger is left with awesome power and no moral or ethical understanding of what to use it for.

[FAP]

"Was Caer Caveral's addition to the Staff of Law unearned knowledge? No. The Forestal gave her the capability, the potential. Linden worked it out on her own."

It wasn't Caer Caveral it was Wildwood that inscribed the runes on the new Staff. And the runes aren't Linden's they are part of the staff. I think those runes added something previously missing from the staff. Linden then seemed to invoke that new power.

"The same, I would say, pertains to the Seven Words. It's just information. Linden figured out how to use it herself - and she already knew how to use Earthpower. "

What about Berek? Berek used those words to summon the fire lions and he had no lore just the words. Those words seem to be enough on their own to invoke Earthpower.

Invoking seems to be the easy part having the lore to skillfully use that power is another matter I would argue.

In the end this is all a made up story so what ever the author says goes. We'll just have to wait and see which way he goes with it.