Joan's Role in the Summonning

[ninjaboy]

Aparrently Linden believes Joan was behind the summonning of herself, roger and Jeremiah..

I have difficulty swallowing this.. She's just mad, she wouldn't have been able to summon Roger, linden and Jeremiah coz she seemed unaware of what was going on, just tormented by pain and all she could think of or desire for was a release from that pain..

I never really understood what her role in the summonning WAS.. Aparrently Linden believed that if Joan died here, Jeremiah etc. would return to her world...

Also, could there be a connection between Joan's torment and that of Kastenessen? Aparrently all he is is pain (according to Roger) and all he does is to cause more pain to make the other pain seem less.. Or something. Isn't that what Joan was doing in the hospital? Isn't that what she's now doing in the Land???

[dlbpharmd]

Joan is possessed by turiya Herem, and it guided her through the summoning.

[ninjaboy]

So you're saying Turiya could get Joan to conduct a summoning, yet doesn't seem to be able to do much else with her?

[dlbpharmd]

So you're saying Turiya could get Joan to conduct a summoning, yet doesn't seem to be able to do much else with her?

She's making ceasures right and left, isn't she? She's not sane enough to do that on her own. The only limitation is that she won't be able to generate enough power to threaten the AoT directly.

[ninjaboy]

I thought she's been making Ceasures in the land since Linden put her ring on her finger - before she was actually in the land.. Before she was posessed by the raver.. I thought they were just mad random expressions of her pain and anger and stuff

[dlbpharmd]

Some have speculated that Joan has been influenced/possessed by either a Raver or Lord Foul while in the "real world."

[Atrium]

Thats pretty much stated in the text no?

[dlbpharmd]

It's definitely implied.

[earthbrah]

Actually, it's because of Linden realizing this fact (that returning Joan's ring to her finger coincided with the inception of the caesures) that the time differential is uncovered.

For me, this fact gives credence to the theory that magic is spanning the boundaries of these worlds.

[wayfriend]

I am sure that there are at least two places where the text indicates that Joan summoned Linden, Roger, and Jeremiah. One was in "I am content" (see the dissection thread).

There are also subtle indications that the summoning was not "normal".

It remains an unexplained phenomenon how Joan can have created those ceasures before she was finally summoned to the Land. We know that she was mentally unbalanced, and "not all there". This may have been more literal than we would normally consider.

And, yes, in this respect there are many similarities between Joan and Jeremiah. This leads me to believe that the mechanism involved is important to the story.

Perhaps she was in the Land in some way. On the other hand, it may be that her connection to the Land didn't include awareness; she generated ceasures without knowing she was doing so.

We also are not clear on the Raver's involvement at this time. Was she possessed before she was summoned? Or did the Raver merely make certain arrangements, that channeled the white gold's power into ceasures. I mean, what are the odds of that happening on it's own?

If this doesn't eventually get explained, I will be disappointed.

[emotional leper]

Please explain exactly how any 'being ripped out of your world and translated into another' summoning is normal.

[wayfriend]

Summoning works by rules, that are mandated by Law. As the Chronicles go by, the Laws get weaker and weaker, and the rules are easier to violate. Compared to Elena's summoning, Joan's was a nightmare - not so much a summoning as ripping a hole into a universe and skaking it until something spilled out.

[Zarathustra]

I agree with the idea that Joan has, in some sense, been in the Land before her "official" summoning. Ditto with Jeremiah. This dual-state usually involves some form of "coma" like behavior, where the character isn't completely *there* in the real world.

Anyway, being summoned certainly doesn't mean that you take your body with you. So who is to say when exactly Joan arrived in the Land, or how many times? Maybe she's had several such experiences, just like Tom.

[wayfriend]

I can't see any way to argue against the hypothesis that Joan and/or Jeremiah have been summoned to the land prior to Runes. Once, or several times.

But it feels wrong. Doesn't it?

The process, even though it is getting more and more abused, still requires a ritual, and the shedding of blood. It's still a big deal. It doesn't seem right that it would be happening quietly on the side without notice.

Also, it requires a summoner, who must die (or be utterly diminished) before the summonsee can return. It doesn't seem right that Foul would have so many dispensible minions with enough power.

And, as another question points out in the GI, there's a lot of risk to Foul, if he is the summoner. It doesn't seem right that he would do any summonsing until he's ready for the Big Final Play.

However, I am at a loss to say what the alternative is. Unless its something related to possession.

If Foul could possess Joan in TWL, perhaps by now Ravers can possess her, or Jeremiah, by Runes. Surely a possessor could send images and visions to the person possessed. And surely the possessor could in some way weild the power of the person that they possess, or indirectly force the person possessed to weild it. Now, if the possessor is in the Land, could they not weild that power in the Land, even if the person that they possess is not? That's the interesting question.

[earthbrah]

Ok, how about this:

Foul had some sort of connection to Joan through her white gold ring. It's been talked about that TC took some of Foul into himself when Foul used the ring to try to destroy Covenant at the end of WGW. Foul poured himself into that blast of wild magic. Maybe the fact that he wore the ring at all gave him some sort of affinity with it, and thus with Joan. And since she's mad already, she's easier to get access to than Linden is.

Just thinking out loud here really.

[wayfriend]

Foul had some sort of connection to Joan through her white gold ring. It's been talked about that TC took some of Foul into himself when Foul used the ring to try to destroy Covenant at the end of WGW.

I'm familiar with the idea.

Foul poured himself into that blast of wild magic. Maybe the fact that he wore the ring at all gave him some sort of affinity with it, and thus with Joan. And since she's mad already, she's easier to get access to than Linden is.

I think all these things have a part. She was possessed long ago, and the link to Foul probably remained. She was insane, which made her easier to access. She is connected to Covenant, which Foul may be in a position to exploit if he has some sort of hold on Covenant. And she used to have a white gold ring, which, if anything, puts her in the arena.

However, whatever happened, happened before she got the ring.

[earthbrah]

I definitely agree, Wayfriend. Whatever happened took place before Linden returned Joan's ring to her. But it occurs to me that her role in the summoning, whatever it was, was a passive one.

Roger clearly took on a much more active role. I mean, that opening sequence between him and Linden--it was clear that he already had knowledge of the Land, what he was doing and why. But how the hell could that be??? How could he know about Foul enough to do his bidding? How could he have been possessed or influenced? Because he's Covenant's son, Joan's?

Seems like his part in the summoning is more essential somehow. Need to sleep on this one...

[dukehenry]

I definitely agree, Wayfriend. Whatever happened took place before Linden returned Joan's ring to her. But it occurs to me that her role in the summoning, whatever it was, was a passive one.

Roger clearly took on a much more active role. I mean, that opening sequence between him and Linden--it was clear that he already had knowledge of the Land, what he was doing and why. But how the hell could that be??? How could he know about Foul enough to do his bidding? How could he have been possessed or influenced? Because he's Covenant's son, Joan's?

Seems like his part in the summoning is more essential somehow. Need to sleep on this one...

Is there not some connection to Foul and the cult that Joan (and therefore Roger) were a part of 10+ years before the Final Chronicles. I assume that Foul made his connection there and it has persisted to date.

[Relayer]

Exactly. And, don't forget that Jeremiah was there too.

[dukehenry]

Exactly. And, don't forget that Jeremiah was there too.

But of course! Every good cult member remembers to make proper use of their on-site daycare facilities.

The brainwashing comes FREE OF CHARGE.