The God Fuse

[Ki]

i apologize for the double post, but i just thought of something

why are babies baptized? before they even have the ability to commit sin? what in the world could a little innocent baby have done that would require his/her sins to be washed away with baptism?

[SoulBiter]

The reason some Christian religions baptize babies is because of 'original sin'.

In answer to Maliks question - Why do 'we' need salvation. Because no one is perfect and thus falls short of being able to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Have you ever lied? Ever had a impure thought? Ever used Gods name in vain? Ever done anything wrong, ever? etc etc etc. Thus WE ALL have sinned and fallen short and thus are in need of salvation.

[The Laughing Man]

why do people who don't believe try so hard to go out of their way to convince those who do that they are mistaken in their beliefs? If you don't believe, why do you even care what we think?

[Zarathustra]

Alright, I’ve done a bit of research, and this time I’ve moved beyond Wikipedia. My research and quotes come straight from Orthodoxyinamerica.org, the link Rusmeister gave us pages back in the thread.

But before we get to those quotes, let’s look at some quotes from The Wounded Land.

Sunder: “Therefore in his wrath the Master turned his face from the Land. He sent the Sunbane upon us, as chastisement for treachery, so that we would remember our mortality, and become worthy again to serve his purpose.” [Remind anyone of the Flood?]

Part of [Covenant]. . . raged at the brutality which had taugh people like Sunder to think of their own lives as punishment for a crime they could not have committed. . . [Remind anyone of Original Sin?]

Protests thronged in Covenant. He knew from experience that this conception of the Land was false and cruel. [Remind anyone of Malik’s posts?]

Linden: “A Master like that isn’t worth believing in.” [See above, concerning Malik’s posts.]

Other similarities between Christianity and the Clave: The emphasis on blood sacrifice. First (in the Old Testiment) animals, then (NT) Christ. Only through bloodletting is salvation procured. Like the Clave: rituals which involve bloody sacrifice purchase life.

Okay, now let’s turn to the quotes from Orthodoxyinamerica.org. These quotes back up my criticism that Christianity—even the Orthodox kind which Rusmeister thinks is exempt—is an inauthentic religion because it denies the self, maligns our physical being, and maligns our physical world. We are doomed and damned creatures in need of salvation, born into this fundamentally flawed place as fundamentally flawed creatures, who, only through debasing ourselves and wallowing in our sinful nature, can we ever give up our will in order to receive forgiveness—not only for our own “sins” but also for Original Sin which we did not commit.

Only when it is humbled will our spirit become aware of the gulf which separates man from God and will know that God is all that within ourselves is nothing worthy of the Lord or pleasing to Him, nothing that is our own except our sins and that the fullness of spiritual life consists in renunciation of self in giving oneself entirely to God and to others.

That is a doctrine which hates man as he exists in his natural state. There is nothing within us worthy of the Lord or pleasing to Him. Yep, the central doctrine of this religion is: you’re a pile of crap.

Only by sacrificing ourselves will we find ourselves in the fullness of life lived for God and for others. And to find ourselves in God and in others, we must lose our own selves. Our spirit, renewed in God, knows that human life belongs to Him and always and in all things is dependent upon Him, and that we must be in steadfast contact with Him, begging His help and living in the hope that the gracious Lord in His mercy will not abandon us in our helplessness.

Yep, we are grovelers who must give up ourselves and live in a state of constant helplessness and begging for mercy.

The righteous men of the Old Testament were aware of their insignificance before God. As Abraham said of himself, I... am but dust and ashes (Gen. 18:27). David, both king and prophet, cried out, I am a worm, and no man (Ps. 22:6); I am poor and needy (Ps. 86:1). Moses said to the Lord, I am slow of speech and of tongue (Ex. 4:10); and the Prophet Isaiah said to himself, I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips (Is. 6:5).

Leper! Outcast! Unclean! That’s what we are to Christians.

The saints of the New Testament Church, the nearer they drew to God, the stronger they were aware of their smallness and unworthiness before God, and were filled with truly profound humility. Some of them declared as they died that they had not even begun their salvation, while others declared that there was no place for them even in Hell, while yet others declared that even the earth would not accept their sinful bodies.

According to St. John Chrysostom, humility is the foundation of all virtue, for even if one distinguishes himself by fasting, prayer, alms, chastity, of any other virtue, without humility all of these would be destroyed and would perish. Thus there is no salvation without humility. This virtue was regarded highly in the Old Testament, for as the Psalmist says, A broken and contrite heart, O God, Thou wilt not despise (Ps. 51:17). Seeing the results which humility brings, he was moved to say, When I was brought low, He saved me (Ps. 116:6).

Not only does Lord Foul want to break Covenant, but "O God" wants you broken and contrite.

In the New Testament, the Lord Himself gave us the greatest example of humility (Matt. 11:39; John 13:14-16), for His entire life teaches us humility. The Mother of God says of herself, For He has regarded the low estate of His handmaiden (Luke 1:48). The Apostle Paul said of himself, I am the foremost among sinners (1 Tim. 1:15). The Publican of the Gospel saw nothing within himself except sinfulness, and simply hoped in God's mercy.

The ways in which one attains humility are different. Sometimes it is through sickness, sorrow and misfortunes. Sometimes it is through being persecuted by others or oppressed by disease. As St. John Chrysostom says, True humility comes when we turn from our sins to God.

So the “foundation of all virtue” is achieved by wonderful things like sickness, sorrow, and misfortune. And this is *good* thing, because it beats you down enough so that you become a proper groveler before the Lord (Foul).

He who has attained deep humility considers himself the unworthiest among men and attributes all his accomplishments to God.

Feeling like a piece of crap yet? No? Then you’re not low enough to be a Christian. Keep trying. Back on your face, grovelers.

Therefore, the poor in spirit, those who are humble of heart, will inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.

Mourning, as the expression of the spirit's repentance for its sins, is of spiritual value, and must be treasured so as not to be wasted on earthly vanities. The mourning of the spirit, however, is not always accompanied by physical tears, for deep sorrow can be expressed in sighs, constriction of the heart, profound silence, inner concentration and withdrawal. Yet, as St. Ephraim the Syrian notes, these tears are like precious pearls, for by God's gift the soul is enlightened by tears, reflecting the heavenly like a mirror.

Yep, being filled with grief over your own lowly, crappy, sinful self is a virtue, something to be treasured. Seeing the life-denying inauthenticity yet? Keep reading.

Great is the strength of pure and heartfelt tears that rise from the depths of the heart, for these tears wash away all internal and external filth and quench the flame of all irritability and anger. These tears are especially saving when they are constant and, as St. John of the Ladder teaches us, he who is truly concerned for his salvation will count each day when he has not wept for his sins as wasted, in spite of any good deeds that may have been accomplished.

A day not spent wracked by self-loathing, self-deprivation, and self-hatred is a bad day.

We are constantly sinning, both when we are active and when we give ourselves over to idle dreams, and these sins must be washed away with tears of repentance. These tears are a means of washing and purifying our soul, and a sacrifice offered up to God by our contrite and broken spirit. If our tears arise from fear of God for our sinfulness, they will intercede for us with God, as St. Ephraim tells us.

We must be a broken sacrifice in order to be “worthy” of saving. Remember, your grief is a good thing, because you are so crappy—constantly sinning—that this is the only appropriate response to your existence.

Meekness is directly linked with heartfelt repentance and mourning for our sins and he who considers himself worthy of all sorrows and troubles will be filled with the spirit of meekness and humility.

Meekness is basically agreeing that you’re a piece of crap, worthy of your own suffering.

The Psalmist especially praises meekness, placing it on a level with truth and righteousness (Ps. 45:4), and the Prophet Isaiah speaks of God's particularly merciful attitude to man who is meek: This is the man to whom I will look, he that is humble and contrite in spirit, and trembles at My word, says the Lord (Is. 66:2). St. Peter sees a meek and quiet spirit as one of the greatest treasures of the human heart, which in God's sight is very precious (1 Pet. 3:4). Therefore he urges the followers of Christ to be ready to answer with meekness and fear (1 Pet. 3:15) those who ask the reason for their hope. St. James asks us to receive with meekness the Word of God (James 1:21), so that it will find the most direct way to the hearts of his listeners.

God wants you to be cowering in fear, mournful of your own worthlessness, and groveling for your life.

Take My yoke upon you, and learn from Me; for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls (Matt. 11:29), for it is out of this virtue that all the other virtues grow, including love itself. Through meekness and humility man overcomes his natural self and pride, and spiritually develops towards self-denial in the Name of God and out of love of Him and one's neighbor.

Yes, self-denial and spiritual slavery. “Taking up his yoke.” You’re no better than a farm animal, to be led by a yoke and toil in God’s fields.

The pure in heart are not tempted by the seductions of this world. As St. John of the Ladder says, truly blessed is he who has attained complete dispassion for all carnal things, for appearance and beauty; great is he who is dispassionate; he who has triumphed over the body, has triumphed over nature, and there is no doubt that he who has triumphed over nature stands higher than nature, and such a man differs little from the-Angels; purity of heart brings us closer to God and, as far as possible, makes us like unto Him.

And here is where we get into denying the world, and maligning our physical existence. This world (like the Land under the Sunbane) is something evil, something to deny, something to “overcome,” and even its beauty is something we should reject. Our bodies are supposed to be “triumphed over,” because we all know our bodies are bad, and nature itself is something we’re supposed to stand above, rather than be part of.

Blessed are you when men shall revile you and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely for My sake.

These words are the continuation and conclusion and at the same time the crown of all the Beatitudes that have preceded. In the eighth Beatitude, oppression and persecution were linked with Christ's righteousness, and in the ninth, with Christ Himself as the bearer and expression of this righteousness. The Savior declares in no uncertain terms that men shall persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely for My sake. In this lies the greatest reward for His followers, who are called to joy and happiness, when the hour of suffering is upon them.


It is important to understand that tribulations are necessary because there is no other way for us to be cleansed of our sins except that pointed out by the Savior and followed by Him. In suffering we become aware of our own weakness and helplessness, and, humbled in prayer and contrition before God, we receive divine help and joy in the Lord.

When you’re reviled and persecuted, you know you’re on the right path! After all, you deserve it. That horrible suffering you’re feeling is the tingle that lets you know it's working!

And now we come to Baptism and Original Sin.

First place among the Sacraments of the Orthodox Church is occupied by Holy Baptism, by which a man,
who has come to believe in Christ, by being immersed three times in water in the Name of the Holy Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), is cleansed through Divine Grace of all sins (Original Sin and personal sins) and is reborn into a new holy, and spiritual life.

So Orthodox Christianity believes in Original Sin after all, despite Rusmeister’s obfuscations on this very issue. We inherit the guilt of a crime we didn’t commit. Again, let’s look at that criticism of the Clave: Part of [Covenant]. . . raged at the brutality which had taught people like Sunder to think of their own lives as punishment for a crime they could not have committed. .

The Savior commanded His disciples to teach the Faith and to baptize all nations (Matt. 28:19), for as descendants of Adam all are in need of rebirth. This rebirth is accomplished only through Baptism, which is why all men seeking salvation, regardless of sex, nationality, or any other condition, must be baptized. Thus the Orthodox Church holds Baptism to be as necessary for infants as for adults, since they, too, are subject to Original Sin and without Baptism cannot be absolved of this sin.

Seems like my interpretations weren't so far off, after all. If you've seen one life-denying, self-denying, body-denying, world-denying, "humans are guilty from birth," "we all deserve our suffering," "we were made to be grovelers and slaves" religion--you've seen them all.

[Cybrweez]

Its interesting you should point that out Esmer, b/c I've heard people complain about Christians shoving their beliefs down others' throats, but when it comes from the other side, its just b/c they are passionate. However, if we're logical about it, one side says there are serious consequences if you're wrong (a good reason to try to convert others), while the other has no such compulsion (no good reason to try to convert others), therefore if we really wanted to label one side as shoving, wouldn't it be nonbelievers?

KiGirl, if you're interested about baby baptism, study the Bible about it and let us know what you find.

[Cybrweez]

Malik, seems like you're ranting. I won't go through the whole bit, but the first 2 points are enough to let me know its a rant.

Only when it is humbled will our spirit become aware of the gulf which separates man from God and will know that God is all that within ourselves is nothing worthy of the Lord or pleasing to Him, nothing that is our own except our sins and that the fullness of spiritual life consists in renunciation of self in giving oneself entirely to God and to others.

That is a doctrine which hates man as he exists in his natural state. There is nothing within us worthy of the Lord or pleasing to Him. Yep, the central doctrine of this religion is: you’re a pile of crap.

I call this a rant b/c of the extreme exaggeration. You seem to confuse justice w/hate. There is a difference, believe it or not. At least, I think there is, I guess you don't.

Only by sacrificing ourselves will we find ourselves in the fullness of life lived for God and for others. And to find ourselves in God and in others, we must lose our own selves. Our spirit, renewed in God, knows that human life belongs to Him and always and in all things is dependent upon Him, and that we must be in steadfast contact with Him, begging His help and living in the hope that the gracious Lord in His mercy will not abandon us in our helplessness.

Yep, we are grovelers who must give up ourselves and live in a state of constant helplessness and begging for mercy.

Actually, what I get out of that statement, is that your life is more enjoyable when you live to help others, rather than live to help yourself. Also, you're more enjoyable to others when you live that type of life (and not just the people you help). God knows this, He did make us, so He wants us to live this type of life, in order for us to enjoy life to the fullest.. Maybe begging is too strong a word (or our pride just hates it), but if the idea of asking and relying on God to help us live for others is equated to groveling, oh well.

[Ki]

Its interesting you should point that out Esmer, b/c I've heard people complain about Christians shoving their beliefs down others' throats, but when it comes from the other side, its just b/c they are passionate. However, if we're logical about it, one side says there are serious consequences if you're wrong (a good reason to try to convert others), while the other has no such compulsion (no good reason to try to convert others), therefore if we really wanted to label one side as shoving, wouldn't it be nonbelievers?

KiGirl, if you're interested about baby baptism, study the Bible about it and let us know what you find.

i know why they baptize babies. it is b/c they are born with the original sin. that's the way this discussion is going. some people are saying that in christianity there is no original sin. my question is then, if there is no original sin for which all people are held accountable for, then why baptize innocent babies.

i'm not shoving my belief down anyone's throat, nor would i. you can have your beliefs...it has no effect on me. but, if you put your beliefs on the table, then why are your beliefs not up for discussion? you've never scrutinized atheism/agnosticism?

[Zarathustra]

Malik, seems like you're ranting. I won't go through the whole bit, but the first 2 points are enough to let me know its a rant.

One man's rant is another man's sermon. Yet you've sat through plenty of sermons I'll wager.

I was accused of being ignorant of Orthodox Christianity, and over-generalizing in my criticism. It was even implied that the kind of Christianity I was familiar with was "hillbilly" Christianity (go back and look).

So, my post was long. True. But that was so that no one could get away with saying I didn't do my research. Of course I don't expect you to accept my interpretations. You'd have to give up your religion to do that. I have no expectation that I'm going to convert you. I'm just proving my point, and backing up my opinion with DIRECT QUOTES from Rusmeister's official source.

And it's not surprising that you didn't read the whole thing. This seems to be your S.O.P. for posts which say things you don't like.

[Ki]

The reason some Christian religions baptize babies is because of 'original sin'.

thank you! that was my whole point. finally someone with the courage to stand up and say that the original sin is actually a part of christianty.

and that's fine if people believe that. i don't have a problem with it. i just can't believe that someone else (it wasn't you soulbiter) would argue that in christianity, there is no such thing as the original sin, when clearly that plays a major role in the religion.

i think that everyone should believe what they want to believe. one of my friends, who is a christian and i haven't told her i am an atheist, told me her son was baptized a couple of weeks ago. i told her that i know that was a happy moment for her and her family b/c it meant something to her. i would never take that away from her, not even to express my silly opinions. i don't work that way. even when people say that they are going to pray for me, i don't shrug that off. even though i don't share their belief in prayer, i know it is their way of telling me they care about me. so, i do not shove my beliefs down someone else's throats and i resent someone saying that i do when clearly i don't. but i can point out when someone is being disingenuous with their beliefs, as some have done here. and there is a difference b/w shoving my beliefs down someone else's throats and pointing out a discrepancy.

[iQuestor]

KiGirl wrote:

thank you! that was my whole point. finally someone with the courage to stand up and say that the original sin is actually a part of christianty.

I said much earlier:

perhaps Life is not a punishment for anything like the Clave alledged for the Land in the Second Chrons, but he is correct that most brands of Christianity say we are are born guilty, all inheriters of the original sin, and we have to accept the tenants of the religion in question or, despite living a good life , we burn in Hell. And to me, that kind of sucks.

kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=563843#563843

[Ki]

yea, sorry i forgot that you said that. excellent point, btw.

[Rawedge Rim]

I'm gonna take a stab at a couple of points here, I'm not here to convert you heathen aethiests and agnostics , nor to test the faith of those within the faith.

The concept of course for "Original Sin" comes from Eve, and Adam's dissobedience to what amounted at the time to God's only real command, "16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die." 18

Up until the point where Adam and Eve had not partaken of the "forbidden fruit", they were innocent, and essentially incable of committing evil, as they had no knowlege of the difference.

Once they ate of the tree, they were no longer innocent, and could grasp the concept of good and evil, and had gained the capacity to be evil, and sin.

Thier very next act, instead of owning up to what they had done, was to pitifully try to hide themselves, and thier "sin" from God. They weren't really sorry about eating of the tree, they were just afraid of being punished.

Then thirdly, when asked why they had disobeyed, instead of saying, "It was my doing" they blamed someone else. Adam goes (paraphrazing) "It wasn't my fault, Eve made me do it!", and Eve went "Wasn't my fault, the serpent made me do it". Either way, no acknowlegement that they were at fault.

This is the basis of the "Original Sin", which according to Word, we are still paying for.


Now you can ask, "Why in the hell did God even put that tree there in the first place?" and my answer would be "Damn if I know".

Depends on how literally you take your bible.

Next in the Bible, prior to the new Testament, there is not really of concept of a Heaven that people as a general rule, could aspire to. The old Testament frequently states that various people died, and "rested with thier fathers", not, "and they were taken into heaven". Only mentions I can think of, of mortals going to heaven, were Elijah and Enoch. It's not until the New Testament that the concept of mortals having a place in Heaven comes about.


As to why humbleness is so exalted within the Bible, (and for that matter, throughout much of religion period, such as shinto, bhuddism, etc), is that pride and self-rightousness takes the mind off of God, and instead concentrates it on the worldly things. One forgets God, and loses sight of him when spending all their time concentrating of riches, power, or IMOHO, pointing out every flaw in others. A humble person knows that they have no business trying to "remove the mote from his nieghbors eye" since he probably has "a beam in his own eye".

Of course the question arises, "why should I not be proud of my accomplishments?"

There is pride, and there is hubris. If you are standing on a plane, with nothing but your skin, you can accomplish nothing. If I, as an omnipotent being, cause a load of bricks and mortor to appear, and you build a house from these materials; was this your accomplishment, or did you have help, and should you not acknowlege that help. You could not have accomplished this without the help of the omnipotent being.

So what happens with people who persue riches, power, and such, is that they lose sight of God, and say to themselves, "God didn't do this, I did, what do I need God for", (at least until the excretement impacts the revolving atmosphere moving device), then it's "God, if you'll get me out of this......50%....make that 60%......"

[Lord Mhoram]

edit

Not worth it.

[Ki]

KiGirl, if you're interested about baby baptism, study the Bible about it and let us know what you find.

if you're interested about why atheists are so passionate about christianity, study the god delusion (richard dawkins) and let us know what you find.

[SoulBiter]

KiGirl, if you're interested about baby baptism, study the Bible about it and let us know what you find.

if you're interested about why atheists are so passionate about christianity, study the god delusion (richard dawkins) and let us know what you find.

Touche'

[Zarathustra]

Up until the point where Adam and Eve had not partaken of the "forbidden fruit", they were innocent, and essentially incable of committing evil, as they had no knowlege of the difference.

Isn't this pretty much how a baby enters the world? Why can't each human start fresh? I don't so much question why God put the Tree there to begin with, but rather why we are all born into this world guilty before we've even had a chance to do anything?

What if there wasn't an Adam? The most horrifying thing about this situation isn't so much that God would actually condemn billions of people for an action which they didn't do (it's hard for me to be horrified by something I don't believe) . . . but rather that people would believe this claim based on a story they hear in their youth. I've heard lots of stories, but I never decided to surrender my self and my will because of them. The fact that people think this is a perfectly valid response to a story in a book, to accept universal condemnation and trans-generational guilt, based on a story about the very first man to ever live . . . to me, this is the same travesty as people in the Land believing the a-Jeroth stories of their forefathers and the Clave. To accept something that horrific without one shred of proof, I just don't understand it.

Think about that: a book which contains the life story of the first human in existence. You've got to admit that this is an unbelievably amazing concept to ask someone to take seriously. Add to that proposal that this guy's life story is the reason why you are born guilty, and it becomes too much for a person like me to accept. I can't do it. Why someone would believe this story instead of the Epic of Gilgamesh makes no sense to me.

As to why humbleness is so exalted within the Bible, (and for that matter, throughout much of religion period, such as shinto, bhuddism, etc), is that pride and self-rightousness takes the mind off of God, and instead concentrates it on the worldly things. One forgets God, and loses sight of him when spending all their time concentrating of riches, power, or IMOHO, pointing out every flaw in others. A humble person knows that they have no business trying to "remove the mote from his nieghbors eye" since he probably has "a beam in his own eye".

But the stuff I quoted above makes the Biblical notion of "humbleness" much more sinister than what you're describing.

. . . within ourselves is nothing worthy of the Lord or pleasing to Him, nothing that is our own except our sins

That's pretty darn "humble." It borders on self-hate. There's nothing within me that's my own except for my sin? Nothing good at all? One would think such a being isn't even worth saving.

. . . their insignificance before God. I... am but dust and ashes . . . I am a worm, and no man . . . I am poor and needy . . .

Arguing against pride and hubris, I can kind of get. But do I really have to insult myself in order to not be proud? And do I really have to suffer in order to stave off this hubris?

The ways in which one attains humility are different. Sometimes it is through sickness, sorrow and misfortunes. Sometimes it is through being persecuted by others or oppressed by disease.

Obviously, this is going way beyond making yourself humble. We can be humble without having to inflict colon cancer upon us. To think that humility is this important, that we deserve sickness and disease in order to humble us . . . don't you think that sounds a lot like Lord Foul? Inflicting pain and suffering on people so they'll surrender themselves and their will to him? Is that really what a loving God would do?

He who has attained deep humility considers himself the unworthiest among men and attributes all his accomplishments to God.

Again, this is some whopping amount of humility. It's more than the absence of pride. It's actively thinking you're the worst person on the planet, and nothing you accomplish is your own. It takes away everything from us but our capacity to sin. This makes humans into monsters. And not very cool monsters, at that. Fairly pathetic ones.

. . . he who is truly concerned for his salvation will count each day when he has not wept for his sins as wasted, in spite of any good deeds that may have been accomplished.

So even when we're doing pretty good, we're supposed to be miserable, weaping for our sins. If not, then our day is wasted. This has nothing to do with making our lives "fuller" or making us happier. This is about tearing us down and making us small, making our lives one long fit of mourning.

[Arcadia]

I think that one of the things that needs to be remembered in discussions about Christianity is that much of it was written by men and based in values and ideas from centuries ago. the original writings were authentic but they were interpreted incorrectly in many cases because those who were interpreting did not speak Aramaic (sp?) and were looking to control the population of Europe.

Montressor - help me out here. You are also an historian.

For example, baptizing babies. Any Christian with half a brain would know that God would not send a newborn to hell if it hadn't been baptized. Oh sure, you are going to have those few who are adamant about it but I think you would find that they are few and far between. This is left over from centuries ago.

As far as Adam and Eve, even the Catholic Church currently does not see Creationism as the beginning of the world. They teach evolution.

Anyway, what I am trying to say is that all this pain and suffering- all this fire and brimstone - is leftover from the Black Plague when Christian Europe thought they were being punished for displeasing God. The Catholic Church was in a constant battle for power over the kings of Europe and they had wars with Islam.

It is a much better argument to discuss historical and anthropolical religious facts rather than argue believer against non-believer.

[Zarathustra]

I think that one of the things that needs to be remembered in discussions about Christianity is that much of it was written by men and based in values and ideas from centuries ago. the original writings were authentic but they were interpreted incorrectly in many cases because those who were interpreting did not speak Aramaic (sp?) and were looking to control the population of Europe.

According to Rusmeister, his particular brand of Christianity is the only correct, historically contiguous brand of Christianity (I think that's what he'd say--it's what the "Orthodox" implies in "Orthodox Christianity").

For example, baptizing babies. Any Christian with half a brain would know that God would not send a newborn to hell if it hadn't been baptized. Oh sure, you are going to have those few who are adamant about it but I think you would find that they are few and far between. This is left over from centuries ago.

I'm not sure how far the "left over from centuries ago" argument will get you when facing an Orthodox Christian. They kind of see that in their favor, the fact that their teachings haven't been distorted over time, and they preserve the original teachings. And according to their website, babies do indeed require Baptism:

The Savior commanded His disciples to teach the Faith and to baptize all nations (Matt. 28:19), for as descendants of Adam all are in need of rebirth. This rebirth is accomplished only through Baptism, which is why all men seeking salvation, regardless of sex, nationality, or any other condition, must be baptized. Thus the Orthodox Church holds Baptism to be as necessary for infants as for adults, since they, too, are subject to Original Sin and without Baptism cannot be absolved of this sin.

If the Bible makes an exception for babies, I'm not aware of it. If you are willing to discard the original teachings of the Church because they don't make sense or seem too harsh, why not discard all of it? I've made a detailed argument above (you may have noticed ) that the entire core belief system doesn't make sense and is too harsh. So I encourage such steps as you seem to have already taken.

As far as Adam and Eve, even the Catholic Church currently does not see Creationism as the beginning of the world. They teach evolution.

Well that's some good news! However, if Christianity is to have any relevance at all to our lives, surely it lies in its doctrine that we require salvation. Otherwise, what's the point of it? And if we ALL require salvation even if we're living a good life, then this can only be due to Original Sin. I'm not sure how the Catholic Church reconciles that idea with evolution, but I'm certainly willing to be educated on that matter. If we developed gradually from other species, at what point did the Sin occur? If Creationism is just a metaphor, perhaps the whole "fall from grace" thing is a metaphor, too, and we don't really need salvation. Perhaps we just need to be good to each other, and that's the whole point of the story (though, if you actually read the Bible, God's chosen people weren't very good to the people who lived in the land they wished to claim as their own--so it's difficult to make that argument from the Bible).

It is a much better argument to discuss historical and anthropolical religious facts rather than argue believer against non-believer.

I like the way you think. Of course, in order to do this, it requires the believer to downplay his beliefs--to take God out of the equation. That seems to leave quite a large piece out of the discussion.

[Cybrweez]

KiGirl, I'm sorry you missed my point (and SoulBiter as well). I wasn't wondering why atheists are passionate about dispelling someone else's belief, but why some consider that ok, but a Christian in the same boat is considered shoving their beliefs down another's throat.

As for baby baptism, the Bible doesn't mention it, and whenever baptism is mentioned, its paired w/repent and believe. So I don't see how a baby could repent and believe in order to be baptized. I can see why this idea that a baby must be baptized b/c of original sin, but I don't see anywhere in the Bible that you can make someone else's decision about salvation, whether baby or adult. Its a stretch.

malik, you're proving your point? You quote something and say, there, it preaches a hatred of man. True, I don't agree w/your interpretation, b/c its pretty bad. But I can't see how your interpretation proves anything.

[Ki]

KiGirl, I'm sorry you missed my point (and SoulBiter as well). I wasn't wondering why atheists are passionate about dispelling someone else's belief, but why some consider that ok, but a Christian in the same boat is considered shoving their beliefs down another's throat.

I'm sorry you were unclear about your point. Did I accuse you of shoving your beliefs down my throat? No. Have I shoved my beliefs down your throat? No. So, I really don't know why you even brought it up. I think in another thread, I have said that some Christians have done that to me, but I've never accused anyone here of doing that. And when I say that Christians, other than those here, have shoved their beliefs down my throat, I do not mean that they shared there beliefs with me. I mean, they came to my door and ridiculed me when I politely declined their invitation to discuss their beliefs. I can make the distinction b/w discussion and shoving. I hope that you can do the same.

There is one thing I suggest that you keep in mind when talking to me about your beliefs. I was raised in the Christian faith, so I know what it is like to be around Christians and I have studied the Bible for a number of years. I understand your position and I respect your right to believe whatever you want to believe.

I think I am quite respectful of your beliefs. I don't make fun of you. I don't call your religion names. I don't talk down to you.