SRD and Richard Wagner

[Worm of Despite]

I read this recently at Wikipedia:

Many elements of the story correspond to those of Richard Wagner's epic "Ring Cycle", but with inverted values.

In typical Wiki fashion, there are no examples. Maybe music buffs might know: what connections are there between Wagner's Cycle and the TC Chronicles? I don't mean just general stuff, like the ring, but specific plot points.

[iQuestor]

LF< if you read the afterword of the first GAP cycle book : The Real Story SRD has a lot to say about how the Ring Cycle influenced him.

[Turiya]

Well, I am a "buff", so to speak, on Donaldson and Wagner. So sue me.

Donaldson and Wagner have some same values (actually, a lot) and a few different ones--namely, Donaldson's less discriminating and more realistic. But here's my analysis (focusing primarily on the Gap, a little bit on TC and various other stories SRD's written). If you want a more point-by-point, detail-by-detail analysis, bug me for one, but here's (basically) how I see Donaldson/Wagner themes.

The primary conflict in the Ring Cycle, which Donaldson got right, is that of Love versus Power. (Never mind love of power, or the power of love.) In the Ring, the curse on love gives the Ring itself its power; the only way to lift the curse is through an act of pure, unselfish, redemptive heroism.

Wagner loved this theme, and so does Donaldson, but they use it--this idea of "redemption"--in different ways; in the Ring Cycle, Brunnhilde lifts the curse pretty much alone, after being thoroughly corrupted, this is her redemption as well as the world's. In Donaldson, many characters--Angus, Min, Lane, Morn, Warden, etc. . .are all involved in this redemptive process, as is more "real", at least to me.

The flawed hero--hell, the flawed *person*--is also something they both believe in; flaws make humans human; also important (look at Wotan/Warden Dios, as an example).

So, both believe in redemption--through love or at least compassion, which is a powerful concept.

They differ when it comes to innocence and purity--see the GI on Donaldson's site for his views; in short, he doesn't think them desirable or attainable. Wagner thinks that they *are* both desirable *and* attainable, but only through total ignorance, which (of course) produces a stupid and extraordinarily unlikeable Siegfried (=Davies Hyland in the Gap). Donaldson discarded the "purity" notion because, well, it's stupid. (Sorry Wagner.)

Donaldson also isn't sexist or an anti-Semite, which helps (actually, Wagner wasn't anti-Semitic per se. He just thought Jews couldn't create good art. And a *lot* of contemporary Jews actually *agreed* with him. . .). Wagner displays some sexism in all his operas (many of them end with a woman sinking lifeless to the ground because "her man" has abandoned her), and Donaldson discards this, too, again because it's dumb. (Thank you Donaldson.)

Thomas Covenant especially conveys the Wagnerian idea of "leitmotifs"--signature tunes or cues that introduce a person or event (look at the phrases that repeat themselves in the Chrons. That's them.) Donaldson also believes (I assume; he's said almost as much) that the composite of these leitmotifs leads to the denoument, or at least the resolution and meaning, of the story. (In short, they write/compose in similar fashion.)

As an aside: Donaldson's more into Liszt now than Wagner, wheras I have become a Wagner fiend (mostly due to the Gap). So maybe we should be interpreting the 3rd Chrons in terms of Liszt?

[Fist and Faith]

kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=72

[Damelon]

In The Real Story, SRD had the best summary of the Ring Cycle that I've read.

[onewyteduck]

Well, I am a "buff", so to speak, on Donaldson and Wagner. So sue me.

So, can you recommend a good recording of the complete Ring Cycle? The one I have is pre WWII and it shows!

[Auleliel]

Well, I am a "buff", so to speak, on Donaldson and Wagner. So sue me.

So, can you recommend a good recording of the complete Ring Cycle? The one I have is pre WWII and it shows!

Turiya introduced me to the Ring Cycle, and I'm pretty sure my opinion doesn't differ much on this matter (if I'm wrong, I'm sure Turiya will correct me on this).
The Goodall version is my favorite (except that it's in English instead of German--and as a native English speaker I don't really care about that). The Solti version isn't bad (except that it's 2 hours shorter than the Goodall version, which makes it seem a bit too rushed in parts).

[Fist and Faith]

There's Ring thread in Vespers:
kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3287

[onewyteduck]

Thanks for the info, Auleliel.

And, Fist, I have to say I've completely missed that thread. Although, to be honest, I can't say I had ever looked for it either!

[Prebe]

Thomas Covenant especially conveys the Wagnerian idea of "leitmotifs"--signature tunes or cues that introduce a person or event (look at the phrases that repeat themselves in the Chrons. That's them.)

Good thinking, and good post Turyia.

[dukehenry]

Quote from WP:

"At a first glance, the most obvious similarity between these two works, apart from the story, are the names of the various characters. If The Gods in Wagner's "Ring" are represented in Donaldson's cycle as the Directors of the United Mining Companies Police, Warden Dios approximates Wotan, ruler of the Wagnerian gods. The prosthetic eye that Warden wears is a dead give-away, but his surname, Dios, is also the Spanish word for God. In addition,"Warden" is seen as a variation of "Woden" the chief of the Norse gods from which inspired the name of Wagner's "Wotan."

Similarly, Holt Fasner's name can be seen to be a conflation of Fasolt and Fafner, the names of the two giants who build Wotan's stronghold/headquarters, Valhalla. Also, "The Dragon", Warden's nickname for his boss, more than hints at Fafner transforming into a dragon after killing Fasolt, his brother-partner and the last of his kind to challenge him in his lust for power. Appropriately, Warden cannot be seen plotting against Holt because he is his primary trusted employee; and in "The Ring", Fasolt and Fafner are protected from any direct action Wotan can take against them because of the contract they made with him in agreeing to build Valhalla. In addition, Holt Fasner's comparison to Fafner is further demonstrated by both characters' ultimate desire for immortality; Fasner by means of possessing the technology of the Amnion and Fafner by his possession of Freia's golden apples, the source of the gods' immortality.

Also, Holt's apparently prescient mother, Norna, is likely named after both Erda, the all-seeing, all-wise goddess of the Earth and her daughters, the Norse Fates, or Norns. Wotan's desire to seek counsel from the reclusive Erda on how to escape Alberich's curse is reflected here when Warden visits Norna in her seclusion in hopes to find a way to defeat "The Dragon."

Min Donner implies the parallel of two Wagnerian roles. The obvious comparison is of the Thunder God, "Donner" who wields his mighty hammer in defense of the Gods, as does the UMCP's Enforcement Director, Min Donner, defending Earth and Space against the hostile forces of the galaxy. Yet, her character and dramatic use in the books suggests that she, more so, represents Brünnhilde, Wotan's favorite Valkyrie daughter/subordinate. Notably, in "The Ring", Brünnhilde, like the Gap Cycle's Min, also tries to carry out Wotan's/Warden's deepest desires, even though he has not explicitly instructed her to. Warden also has a secret love and respect for Min, not only as the master/father does for the apprentice/child but, much like Wotan's Brünnhilde, for whom she has developed on her own.

Likewise, Godsen Frik (another reference to the Gods), the Director Of Protocol's name, hints that his character parallels Fricka, Wotan's wife and Goddess of Marriage and Virtue. But, Godsen's role within the Gap Cycle shows that his purpose more closely aligns with that of Wagner's Freia: the price that Wotan/Warden must pay Holt/Fasolt and Fafner for building Valhalla/giving the UMCP almost total power. Further, the fact that Donner, Wagner's very male Thunder God, becomes Min Donner, the very forceful female head of UMCP's Enforcement Division, is nicely reversed when Donaldson changes Fricka and Freia, two rather passive goddesses, into the rather effeminate Godsen Frik the male Director of UMCP's Protocol Division.

With the character of the eccentrically clever scientist, Hashi Lebwohl, who represents Loge, the cunning, trickster god of fire in the Ring Cycle, Donaldson's naming schema is less obvious. Quoting the author himself: "Some things I can explain. Others happen purely by intuition or "feel," and them I can't explain. So: "Leb wohl" ("farewell") is what Wotan sings to Brünnhilde as he puts her into an enchanted sleep (as punishment for defending Sigmund and Sieglinde against him) right before he summons Loge to guard her with fire. (All of this, of course, is from Wagner's "Ring" cycle.) Thus Loge's fire becomes the symbol of Wotan's love and respect for Brünnhilde, and of his bereavement at losing her--and at everything that follows from her defiance. So it isn't much of a stretch to see the fire (and therefore Loge) as Wotan's farewell gift to Brünnhilde, the magic which eventually enables her to bring about his destruction. But "Hashi" I can't explain. It just popped into my head--and felt right. However, it may conceivably be a reference to "hashish," and therefore to Hashi's rather dissociated (or perhaps I should say oblique) relationship with people and events. (On the other hand, I may just be grasping at straws." <grin>)

Milos Taverner, the scheming coward who slyly uses his enemies against one another for his own personal gain and survival, could easily recall Wagner's "Mime". While Milos is caught between his assignment by Warden, his fear/control of Angus' powers, and his treacherous alliance with the Amnion, Mime's self-made trap between Wotan's prophecy, his fear/using of Siegfried's strengths and his lust for revenge on Alberich is comparable. Both cowards cannot sustain their game of falsehood which, in turn, leads to their ultimate doom at the hands of their targets. The threat and ambitions of the Amnion reflect Alberich's plan to enslave all life in the name of ultimate power, by which the futility of such plans are evidently purposeless upon achieving their goal.

Regarding the names of the three main characters of the story, Donaldson explains (in his Author's Note at the end of The Real Story) that he came up with the names "Angus Thermopyle", "Morn Hyland" and "Nick Succorso" while driving, and used them in his series because he liked the sound of them. While these names bear no likeness to the names of any of the "Ring Cycle" characters, the author is clear that his "Angus" and "Morn" function much as "Siegmund" and "Sieglinde".

While there are many dissimilarities, the fact that both Wotan and Warden strategically place their children/unwitting agents in harm's way in order to save humankind from total destruction is the key element which sets both dramas in motion. Angus and Morn/Siegmund and Sieglinde consummate their relationship illegally (rape/incest) and produce invaluable offspring (Davies/Siegfried) who hold the key to freeing humanity from their dependency on the UMC/Gods.

Nick Succorso's stretch of a comparison to Hagen can be made by his obsessive need for revenge directed at/serving the one who scarred/created him. But he is more observably compared to Hunding. Sieglinde is allowed to be taken by Hunding and forced into an abusive relationship/marriage with him. It is Siegmund (like Angus) who rescues her by means of Wotan's secret plan. Likewise, Warden has also allowed Nick to possess and abuse Morn only to be rescued by Angus' covert UMCP-programmed mission. Further, when Fricka demands that Wotan abandon Siegmund and Sieglinde and give executional victory to Hunding, we are closely reminded of Warden's confrontation with Holt in which "The Dragon" orders Warden to abandon Angus and Morn and turn over command to Nick, with orders to kill them.

This leads us to a hidden parallel in the naming of the UMCP's gap scout vessel, "Trumpet". Wagner's use of the leitmotif in his music dramas (a musical passage used to identify principal characters, significant objects and emotions) and his brilliant orchestrations often feature certain musical instruments in the playing of a given theme. The sword that Wotan promises to Siegmund (which is instrumental in leading him to the rescue of the shamed Sieglinde) is first identified in "The Ring", musically, by trumpets. The sword is named by Siegmund as "Needful", while "Trumpet" is a Needle Class vessel and is the essential instrument/weapon/protection given to Angus as he sets off to covertly rescue Morn. Here, Donaldson, while lacking the vehicle of music in novel form, creates his own leitmotif, if you will, there by hinting not only at Wagner, but his compositional techniques as well.

Lastly, the most obvious parallel is the title of Donaldson's final book in his cycle, "This Day All Gods Die." Wagner's final installment of his cycle is called, "Götterdämmerung" or "Twilight Of The Gods." Both refer to the demise of the ruling power of the UMC/Gods brought about by the willing sacrifice of both Warden Dios and Wotan. Donaldson's acknowledgment of the apparent inspirational symbols of Wagner's "Ring" in his own work is, in itself, comparable to the composer's own admitted inspiration by the Norse and Volsung mythological sagas."

[Prebe]

Thanks for that. It's been so long since I read the Gap cycle, that I had forgotten, that SRD has admitted (and even described) his Wagner connection.

[SGuilfoyle1966]

That introduction in the Real Story, where SRD describes the Ring cycle and mostly how it effects the Gap Cycle, has to be read by people who want to understand The Covenant series.
It has been a while, but I do remember a bit f it where Donaldson talks about the importance of Odin's staff. it is inscribed with runes, which are the agreements he has made to attain his power and the strictures by which he is bound.
He ends up being trapped by the things that give him power and it has to be destroyed before he can save the world. But in saving the world, he himself sees his doom.
the first "Needful" was broken on Odin's staff, in one interpretation. But when it was reforged, it broke Odin's staff.
(I prefer the Norse names to the German.) I'll be rereading that intro in a bit, because it's been a while, and I've actually intrigued myself about it.

[Relayer]

Thanks duke! As someone who's not familiar w/ the Ring Cycle except via what SRD has said and what I've read here, that was excellent, especially since I'll be re-reading the Gap sometime w/in the next year or so.

[SGuilfoyle1966]

I reread the intro. Pretty much what I said above.
Though I did think to myself, there's no documentation to say that Berek's staff was inscribed with runes at its forging.
Could have been the exact same deal. A little bit here, a little bit there.