my problem with SRD's time paradox

[Fist and Faith]

Yes, I understand. But I prefer the thought of a complete timeline. Beginning and end. Something like, what... An Arch! Heh. Yeah, he may have meant that word in a different way, but I can think of it my way, too! But fine, she can't travel to the future of Stave's time.

[MsMary]

I am still not clear what is intended. Are you expecting a possible caesure to carry someone forward in time, as Anele was carried forward?

[Fist and Faith]

Nobody needs to actually go to a point in the future. I'm just wishing that future would be considered. I'm wishing Linden would think along these lines:

"Nobody from the last X years until now has heard of the Staff of Law. So if I go back X years, find it, and bring it to now, nobody between now and then will become confused because of what I did. There will be no paradox. The Arch of Time is safe.

"Hmm... But wait. What of Stave's great grandchildren? Somewhere in the future, they exist. Have they heard of it? What if they have not? My bringing it to the present would cause a conflict with their knowledge. The Arch would be threatened. Just as if I had been brought back to the Land 200 years ago and carried through with this plan, Stave of today would see a conflict."

If she did that, the Theomach could probably get involved, and give an explanation to the Land-dwellers that would fit it all together. So the issue could be dealt with, and SRD could still do what he intends. And it would fit in with my conception of fantasy time-travel. The whole of Time is considered.

[wayfriend]

"Hmm... But wait. What of Stave's great grandchildren? Somewhere in the future, they exist. Have they heard of it? What if they have not? My bringing it to the present would cause a conflict with their knowledge. The Arch would be threatened. Just as if I had been brought back to the Land 200 years ago and carried through with this plan, Stave of today would see a conflict."

What if Stave's great grandchildren learned that, in the past, Foul kidnapped Jeremiah and kept him prisoner until he died of old age? That means that Linden should not try to rescue him, right?

What if their knowledge of history includes Linden being locked up in Revelstone by the Haruchai until the end of her days?

... or that Linden headed into the Southron wastes and was never heard of again? ... or built a castle in the Mythal Valley and waged war against the Ramen?

What if they learned from history that Linden spent her days walking around the Land, whacking herself on the head with a board while droning out gregorian chants? Will Linden break the Arch if she doesn't start doing that?

I'm silly for a good reason. The first point I'm making is that, the dilemma you propose has nothing to do with Linden's time travel to retrieve the Staff. It has to do with what Linden does vs what some supposed future "knows" she does. And so it applies to every single thing Linden could do. Or to every single thing Stave, or Liand, or anyone else could do.

Second, I'm trying to demonstrate that it's bootless to worry about whether or not everything and anything you do is what the future knows you did. It's untenable. To the point where the universe could not function in this way.

The truth of the matter (heh) is this: If Linden chooses to go back in time to retrieve the staff and bring it forward, then it follows that this MUST be what the future would know she did. Just like anything else she chooses to do, which is remembered in the future. The future is created in the present.

You can't make things work any other way.

[DukkhaWaynhim]

...If Linden chooses to go back in time to retrieve the staff and bring it forward, then it follows that this MUST be what the future would know she did. Just like anything else she chooses to do, which is remembered in the future. The future is created in the present.

You can't make things work any other way.

WF, on the one hand, this statement makes me want to nod and say, "Duh, of COURSE that's the way it works!"

On the other hand, it also makes me want to cower, hide my head, and pop several aspirin.

dw

[MsMary]

"Nobody from the last X years until now has heard of the Staff of Law. So if I go back X years, find it, and bring it to now, nobody between now and then will become confused because of what I did. There will be no paradox. The Arch of Time is safe.

"Hmm... But wait. What of Stave's great grandchildren? Somewhere in the future, they exist. Have they heard of it? What if they have not? My bringing it to the present would cause a conflict with their knowledge. The Arch would be threatened. Just as if I had been brought back to the Land 200 years ago and carried through with this plan, Stave of today would see a conflict."

If she did that, the Theomach could probably get involved, and give an explanation to the Land-dwellers that would fit it all together. So the issue could be dealt with, and SRD could still do what he intends. And it would fit in with my conception of fantasy time-travel. The whole of Time is considered.

I am sorry, that just doesn't make sense to me. Linden is in the Land's present (except when she goes back). So anything that she does in the Land's present is by definition going to affect that Land's future, just as things she did the last time she was in the Land affected the Land's past (its history).

You can't create a paradox by affecting what is going to happen in the future cause it hasn't happened yet.

[matrixman]

Good discussion! I go along with the views of MsMary, aTOMiC and Wayfriend.

Fist, I think I get what you mean by a "complete" timeline. It encompasses the beginning and the end of time - like the Arch, as you said. And some entity like the Creator, who is ostensibly "outside" of time, would be able to "see" everything that has ever occurred or will occur, yes? So, from this perspective, there is a "real" future, not just a blank canvas waiting for Linden to write on, because the Creator has already seen it happen. Am I understanding you correctly?

But that troubles me, and others have spoken of it. If the future is already "written" as well as the past, then is there no free will? Linden can do nothing about anything without endangering everything. But wait a minute... "free will" is obviously very important to the Creator, otherwise why the heck would he have bothered with Covenant and Linden? But then again, if from his cosmic perspective, he could already know what they would do...oy, I'm getting dizzy now...

[Fist and Faith]

I feel unable to get my point across. No biggie, because it's still fun discussing it. Heh. But really, all the possibilities of something that is not much different from that old idea that everything in the universe is shrinking at the same rate, but, since that means the tape measures are also shrinking, you just can't tell.

Anyway...

"The Staff hasn't been used since Anele lost it. It hasn't changed anything. It hasn't done anything. That's what being lost means." Surely the Haruchai, if no one else, would have become aware of it otherwise? "Taking it out of the past and bringing it here won't disrupt what's already happened."

So, one possibility is that the Arch can't be shattered, no matter what she does with the Staff at any point in time she takes it to, because she will have only done what everyone from all points in time would have thought happened if she hadn't been thrown into the mix anyway. Even if she tried, she couldn't actually change things. Like the Professor from Gilligan's Island trying to save Lincoln in that episode of The Twilight Zone. Or that part in Deja Vu whenith Denzel Washington sent the note back to himself.

But what if that isn't how it happens? What if a paradox that destroys the Arch can be created? I don't see any difference between causing one, say, a hundred years before Stave's time that will be bad in light of what those of Stave's time know, and causing one in Stave's time that will be bad in light of what those a hundred years after Stave's time know. Stave's time was arbitrarily picked as the time that is safe, because it doesn't matter whether or not those after never heard of the Staff.

Of course, the Theomach doesn't believe this scenario is how it works. He goes to lengths to make sure anything she does in Berek's time that would be a paradox is worked into what the people of Berek's time are "supposed" to know.

Honest to God, this is all extremely clear in my head! I just can't put it into words so that it makes sense to you folks!

In rl, I'll go on believing things are exactly what they appear to be, until I have any reason to believe otherwise. That there is no such thing as travelling back and forth through time, either being unable to change anything or constantly rewriting the timeline. (Anybody read an old sci-fi book called Thrice Upon a Time? They discuss what Matrixman just said, calling it the "superobserver." The superobserver sees time going along; sees something from whatever point go back and change the past; and sees the timeline continue from that changed point. The superobserver remembers the original timeline, which, now, never happened. Lots of fun! )

As a sort of tangent, what do you suppose would happen if the Arch is shattered? How would those inside it perceive it's destruction? I wonder... And would the entirety of Time be destroyed? Or would it just stop at the point where the paradox occurred? And if the latter, what if she accidentally caused the paradox to occur some time between when the Staff was lost and Stave's time? Would the time that happened between the paradox and Stave's time cease to exist??

[I'm Murrin]

Fist, would you start off with the idea that a normal Land timeline exists that doesn't involve Linden arriving at all? That Linden's summoning changes what was already supposed to happen? Because that is the only way I can see there being a problem with anything Linden does. If Linden was always going to be summoned at that time, then anything she does is what should have happened, what people in the future remember happening--including her time travelling.
I don't see that there's any reason to think that a different future existed where Linden wasn't summoned to the Land, however. Even if you think of the "real world" as being outside and not part of the Land's reality, the events within the Land that led to Linden's summoning would still be part of the Land's history, and so her actions in the Last Chrons would always be.


(Moving on...)

Spoiler

The FR parts avout the Theomach making sure things happen as they are supposed to seems to me to be explained in the text, albeit at a later point. After the Berek part, we hear that it's not that history is changed, it's that history is changed in a way that contradicts someone's knowledge of what happened. If Linden's actions cause a contradiction in the Land's history that Linden knows of, then it will destroy the Arch. Noone in the future, we can assume, will have the liberty to travel backward in time and so learn of two versions of their own history.

What we're left with is this: only a person travelling backward in time can create paradox, and so long as such a time traveller does not cause any events that contradict their own direct knowledge of history, they can assume that is what was supposed to happen (since all of time is written already).
It is only possible to create a paradox if it is something you know, for certain, to be a paradox.

[Fist and Faith]

I disagree. The whole "butterfly effect" is about creating paradoxes that you are not aware of. Specific events occur in time; then somebody goes back in time, and makes different events occur. But in the Final Chrons, the danger is not in changing things, but in destroying the Arch.

[I'm Murrin]

But because we start with the assumption that all of time exists already, then the loophole is created wherein anything that is done can be thought of as what was supposed to be done, with the only exception being when you or someone else has certain knowledge of the contradiction. (And to have such certain knowledge, one would need to either be able to see into the future, or to travel into the past, those being the only ways to know what the history was before the actions taken that might change it.)
We allow free will in that it is possible to create a paradox, but by allowing that the actions of the time traveller are predetermined so long as he or she does not create one, time becomes more robust and can survive the existence of time travel.

[Fist and Faith]

It seems to me that your theory means Linden could do any damned thing she wanted, as long as she didn't look into things beforehand to make sure she wasn't doing anything she shouldn't. She could intentionally not look into things, so she wouldn't be aware of any potential danger from what she plans, knowing that it must work out ok.

[wayfriend]

I feel unable to get my point across.

If I've done nothing else in this thread, I've been trying to niggle you into getting your point across.

So, one possibility is that the Arch can't be shattered, no matter what she does with the Staff at any point in time she takes it to, because she will have only done what everyone from all points in time would have thought happened if she hadn't been thrown into the mix anyway.

Certainly the author has proclaimed over and over again that the Arch is threatened by creating paradoxes. So I think we can rule this possibility out on that basis alone.

I don't see any difference between causing one, say, a hundred years before Stave's time that will be bad in light of what those of Stave's time know, and causing one in Stave's time that will be bad in light of what those a hundred years after Stave's time know.

But there IS a significant difference. And I've been trying to explain it.

But the problem is, you've been putting the cart in front of the horse, which makes it hard.

Yes, if Stave's grandchildren see that Linden did XYZ, and then Linden doesn't do XYZ, it would create an Arch-threatening paradox. In this respect, this is exactly the same threat that Linden deals with when she travels back in the past, etc. So you are correct.

The problem lies in the premise that Stave's grandchildren would see Linden doing XYZ. If she didn't do XYZ, why would these grandchildren have a perception of history that she did? That's the problem! You have the cart before the horse, in that what the grandchildren know flows from what she does, not the other way around.

Whatever Stave's grandchildren know about the past, they know it because, one day, in the past, it actually happened that way. If they know of Linden doing XYZ in their past, it must be because she did it!

Therefore, the only way the dilemma in your question can occur is if (1) Linden, in her present, does XYZ (2) years later, Stave's grandchildren know of it; (3) something happens so that what Linden did in her present is changed. Someone, not Linden, travelled back in time and changed what Linden did.

But as long as no one is time travelling and creating paradoxes --- if the timeline is never changed --- then what Stave's grandchildren know MUST BE what she actually did. And the condition that they know she did something different is not possible.

Which makes it entirely different from the other scenario, where Linden travels back in time to retrieve the Staff. Be cause she is, in fact, going back in time and changing what happened.

[MsMary]

The problem lies in the premise that Stave's grandchildren would see Linden doing XYZ. If she didn't do XYZ, why would these grandchildren have a perception of history that she did? That's the problem! You have the cart before the horse, in that what the grandchildren know flows from what she does, not the other way around.

Whatever Stave's grandchildren know about the past, they know it because, one day, in the past, it actually happened that way. If they know of Linden doing XYZ in their past, it must be because she did it!

Therefore, the only way the dilemma in your question can occur is if (1) Linden, in her present, does XYZ (2) years later, Stave's grandchildren know of it; (3) something happens so that what Linden did in her present is changed. Someone, not Linden, travelled back in time and changed what Linden did.

But as long as no one is time travelling and creating paradoxes --- if the timeline is never changed --- then what Stave's grandchildren know MUST BE what she actually did. And the condition that they know she did something different is not possible.

Which makes it entirely different from the other scenario, where Linden travels back in time to retrieve the Staff. Be cause she is, in fact, going back in time and changing what happened.

This pretty much sums up what I was trying to say, too. I still don't understand how you can create a paradox in the future.

[Fist and Faith]

Yes, I understand that. But... There are two timelines: An original, with nothing but linear time, without Linden and her going back and forth from present to past; and one with her shenanigans, which must fit into the original. If that was not the case, then the Theomach need not have bothered working Linden's actions into the known history of the Land. There would have been only one timeline, and Linden's time-travelling would have been why the things everybody knew happened happened. But that's not the case. The Theomach had to fit Linden's actions into the Land's original timeline.

[I'm Murrin]

But as far as the Theomach is aware, he only lived those events once. So it's entirely possible from his perspective that he always did that, and made sure events played out in the way Linden knew them to have done. Linden, also, has no way of knowing if events were ever different from the way they occured when she was there.
Unless we know (by the means of someone in the story knowing) that events were changed, then we can only assume they weren't.
Admittedly, the Mahdoubt is an unknown factor in this, because she can travel in time and we don't know what she knew. It's possible she could entirely unravel this theory by knowing things were different, but we'll probably never know if she knows or not.

[Fist and Faith]

Damn, this should be in the FR forum. My own feeling was the reason I object to how SRD is handling this. By itself, that's meaningless. Just my opinion, and no problem for the story.

But my justification comes from FR, so we have all these spoilers. Can you mod-folk move this thread?

"Here the preservation of the Arch need not trouble you. That burden is mine. At great cost, I have garnered knowledge which you lack, and my knowledge is profound. Be assured that I will watch over you. Indeed, I have already done so. I have set you at a distance which ensured that my theurgy would not be witnessed, but which will not prevent the accomplishment of your intent.

"Where my guidance is needed, I will provide it. And I will accommodate the effects of both your presence and your deeds. You need only trust in yourself - and heed my counsel. In the fullness of time, my aid will deomnstrate its worth."

I really don't see how that can be interpreted as anything other than, "When you do things in this time that will break the Arch, I will fix things so they don't." If he was not there fixing things, her actions in the past would not simply be part of what everybody in the future always thought had happened. The Theomach has learned (And I wonder what the cost was!) what people in Berek's time and after are supposed to know. But Linden does things that would create paradoxes, so he fixes things. For example, he knows that the future calls certain people "Unfettered." (I thought that was interesting, because I just assumed the Unfettered were only around during the time of the New Lords. Interesting that Unfettered were around during Berek-Kevin too.) He also knows that there is no tale of a mysterious, unexplained woman who does some serious healing with a magical staff. So he begins the knowledge of the Unfettered by telling Berek that Linden is one.

[wayfriend]

Ah, we are over in FR now.

The very fact that the Theomach was protecting something, preserving the Arch, proves to me that there ARE two timelines. One is the one we see. One is the one that became known in the future, that Linden's actions are measured against to determine if they are safe, within reason, or dangerous. As I said in the FR thread about time travel (which we should, perhaps, move this discussion to), Donaldson allows this paradoxical situation to occur.

As for "fixing things", what the Theomach does is direct Linden's actions so that she doesn't create BIG changes, only little changes. Such things can be tolerated by the Arch. And, yes, he somehow knows what the future knows in order to be able to do this.

See thread The Continuity of Time

[dlbpharmd]

Can you mod-folk move this thread?

Done. Feel free to remove your spoiler tags, or if I get time later I'll do it.

[Fist and Faith]

You da man!!