Pantheon - The Third Age - Game Thread

[Mynaesos]

In ancient times, there was an old cultivator who asked for instructions from a monk,

"Great Monk, let me ask you, how can I attain liberation?" The Great monk said, "Who tied you up?" This old cultivator answered, "Nobody tied me up." The monk said, "Then why do you seek liberation?"

II. The origin of suffering is attachment.

[Amplarx]

So let it be written...

Interesting O-gon-cho. You are forcing the god of war to aggression because you have refused his plentiful and generous offereings to you and you have made no "negotiations" whatsoever. Only demands that you get what you want.

Being that you both are vying for the same land that borders my own, I have a vested interest in the outcome. I have told both of you that I do not want war on Imray.

I have spoken to uKulwa and he has told me that he has offered to help you relocate, help train and provide military protection, and pay you money or services in compensation for the cities you think belong to you.

You, on the other hand, have offered nothing but to have him train your centaurs which only benefits you entirely. You, O-gon-cho are refusing all offers, no matter how reasonable and you, in turn, accuse him of starting an Empire.

Now, you throw down the gauntlet and claim that your followers will "defend" themselves. In all actuality, you are the one who started this conflict and therefore, you are the aggressor. You are the one who begins the war.

It will be uKulwa who will be defending himself.

What are these plentiful and generous offerings? "I'll help you relocate somewhere else"? How is it generous to take all the land and "help" someone else's relocation? What would this "help" entail, exactly? What meaningful assistance can be given from someone busy claiming an entire continent in such a huge endeavour as relocating an entire race?

This land clearly means more than mere money or services can provide. It's obviously not about wealth or power. It's about having a home.

How can it ever be generous to take someone's home when nowhere else can ever be a true home?

It is not necessary to negotiate when your offer is already reasonable, and your opponent's is not. The reason uKulwa has to offer so many concessions is because he knows his original intent is so absurd as to be completely impalatable. He hopes to lessen the foul taste to bearable levels with a sugar coating added hastily afterwards.

There is nothing reasonable or generous about the proposals uKulwa makes. They are just slightly better than the original ones.

[Cryak]

In the end, the only "rights" we have to our own lands or peoples, is our own strength of arms to claim such rights. It is nature at it's finest that the weak shall perish while the strong survive.

We will see who is strong and who is weak, though I have my bets on a certain party.

[Bel]

It is not her own rights that should be considered, but those of the mortals who have chosen to follow her. The Lord of War has demanded that they leave their homelands or convert to his worship, and implies the same ultimatum for all others who live within the southern half of Imray. One cannot argue in any sense that uKulwa's will should be held above that of O-gon-cho--indeed, I would insist the opposite--but in whatever sense you consider this, to make such demands as he has is to presume a right to dictate the lives of those who as yet lie outside of his influence.

[Cryak]

It is not her own rights that should be considered, but those of the mortals who have chosen to follow her. The Lord of War has demanded that they leave their homelands or convert to his worship, and implies a similar ultimatum for all others who live within the southern half of Imray.

These believers follow us of their own free will. Should they dislike how they are being led, they can leave their worship.

One cannot argue in any sense that uKulwa's will should be held above that of O-gon-cho--indeed, I would insist the opposite--but in whatever sense you consider this, to make such demands as he has is to presume a right to dictate the lives of those who as yet lie outside of his influence.

You use the words "should" and "rights." But where in any natural world do we find these things? The only rights or "should"s we see, are those enforced by the one wishing for such. If O-gon-cho wishes to earn he rights then so be it. They will never be given to her.

[Bel]

These believers follow us of their own free will. Should they dislike how they are being led, they can leave their worship.

Yet this is entirely my point: Those he is making demands of are not his followers, they have not chosen to follow him. They have, in fact, chosen another entirely to follow. How, then, can they respond to uKulwa's behaviour in the way that you suggest? Your statement fails to address my argument.

[Cryak]

Yet this is entirely my point: Those he is making demands of are not his followers, they have not chosen to follow him. They have, in fact, chosen another entirely to follow. How, then, can they respond to uKulwa's behaviour in the way that you suggest? Your statement fails to address my argument.

Ahh, I apologize.

I would think that if O-gon-cho's followers disliked the way she handle's the situation, that is: to either fight uKulwa and win rights to the lands present, or protect them in another manner and leave, then they can leave her worship.

[Bel]

And I argue that the response of O-gon-cho to uKulwa's aggression is of little import beside the aggression itself.

You seem to believe that a god may make such demands of the world's inhabitants by right of strength alone; I say that when that god's intent is to bring War against them, then he has no such right.

[Cryak]

And I argue that the response of O-gon-cho to uKulwa's aggression is of little import beside the aggression itself.

You seem to believe that a god may make such demands of the world's inhabitants by right of strength alone; I say that when that god's intent is to bring War against them, then he has no such right.

Then we have reached the point where our paths separate. You believe (and correct me if I am mistaken) that rights are inherent, whereas I believe that the only rights we posses are those earned and taken. Time will tell which is true.

[Arcadia]

What are these plentiful and generous offerings? "I'll help you relocate somewhere else"? How is it generous to take all the land and "help" someone else's relocation? What would this "help" entail, exactly? What meaningful assistance can be given from someone busy claiming an entire continent in such a huge endeavour as relocating an entire race?

I stated plainly that he has offered to help her relocate, provide protection, and even pay gold in compensation. What has she offered? Precisely nothing.

This land clearly means more than mere money or services can provide. It's obviously not about wealth or power. It's about having a home.

Yes, even uKulwa's followers live there. It is their home as well. How are they to be compensated for their loss of home?

How can it ever be generous to take someone's home when nowhere else can ever be a true home?

Yet, you expect uKulwa's followers to give up their rightful home in favor of O-gon-cho? If we are talking generosity, where is the generosity in that?

It is not necessary to negotiate when your offer is already reasonable, and your opponent's is not. The reason uKulwa has to offer so many concessions is because he knows his original intent is so absurd as to be completely impalatable. He hopes to lessen the foul taste to bearable levels with a sugar coating added hastily afterwards.

So, you are saying that it is not necessary for O-gon-cho to negotiate?????

**heavy sarcasm**
Gee, I didn't realize that she was above such things and that she can take whatever she wants.

That being the case, what is good for the goose is good for the gander. uKulwa then, can do the same since O-gon-cho holds no authority over him.

There was no offer from O-gon-cho so how can it be reasonable? She said "I want these lands and you can have the rest." uKulwa is not making absurd concessions - he is trying to avoid war. Hence, he demostrates that he is willing to negotiate for what he wants. She, on the other hand, is not. No concessions were offered on uKulwa's loss of land. No tears for his followers lost homes.

There is nothing reasonable or generous about the proposals uKulwa makes. They are just slightly better than the original ones.

And yet, he still makes them. Where are O-gon-cho's proposals? She has admitted to me personally that she is stubborn and inflexible.

Amplarx, you are operating on the assumption that the land belongs to O-gon-cho moreso than it belongs to uKulwa and I simply do not see that as being the case.

If both have an equal claim to the lands - as it appears that both do - then they must negotiate for them or fight over them. uKulwa has negotiated in an attempt to keep the peace. O-gon-cho has not, preferring instead to be stubborn and thus forcing uKulwa's hand into war.

The comical thing about all of this is that she is calling it "defense." In actuality, it is aggression on her part. Instead of keeping the peace, she chooses to be stubborn against a god who could easily destroy her. She is taking the stance of "victim" instead of taking a proactive role in keeping peace on Imray. She has tweaked uKulwa's nose and now she wants to act like a damsel in distress - like the one wronged.

Gentlemen, take it from another woman: this victimhood of O-gon-cho's is just an act and she is only doing it because she knows you will come to her aid.

This is not the smartest move on her part.

[Amplarx]

I stated plainly that he has offered to help her relocate, provide protection, and even pay gold in compensation. What has she offered? Precisely nothing.

As covered before, any offer for compensation, be it gold or services is meaningless when it comes to something irreplaceable like a home.

Yes, even uKulwa's followers live there. It is their home as well. How are they to be compensated for their loss of home?

Yet, you expect uKulwa's followers to give up their rightful home in favor of O-gon-cho? If we are talking generosity, where is the generosity in that?

What loss of home? O-gon-cho doesn't propose to evict uKulwa's followers from where they already are. There's the big difference. O-gon-cho wants the land between Zevente and Zendra, not the whole continent.

uKulwa's followers have to give up nothing because O-gon-cho doesn't claim the entire continent. uKulwa wants to take the whole continent, thereby evicting O-gon-cho's followers.

The "generous" offer of helping them to relocate would not be necessary at all if the original demands weren't so preposterous.

So, you are saying that it is not necessary for O-gon-cho to negotiate?????

**heavy sarcasm**
Gee, I didn't realize that she was above such things and that she can take whatever she wants.

That being the case, what is good for the goose is good for the gander. uKulwa then, can do the same since O-gon-cho holds no authority over him.

Their positions are very different. O-gon-cho is happy to split the land, uKulwa wants it all. O-gon-cho's proposal to take a slice of land in the south is obviously more reasonable than uKulwa's to take everything.

There was no offer from O-gon-cho so how can it be reasonable? She said "I want these lands and you can have the rest." uKulwa is not making absurd concessions - he is trying to avoid war. Hence, he demostrates that he is willing to negotiate for what he wants. She, on the other hand, is not. No concessions were offered on uKulwa's loss of land. No tears for his followers lost homes.

You keep making reference to uKulwa's followers' lost homes. O-gon-cho is not trying to evict anyone from Imray. That's uKulwa's plan.

Amplarx, you are operating on the assumption that the land belongs to O-gon-cho moreso than it belongs to uKulwa and I simply do not see that as being the case.

If both have an equal claim to the lands - as it appears that both do - then they must negotiate for them or fight over them. uKulwa has negotiated in an attempt to keep the peace. O-gon-cho has not, preferring instead to be stubborn and thus forcing uKulwa's hand into war.

In a way, O-gon-cho does have a greater claim on Imray than uKulwa does. O-gon-cho is not new to Eiran, and Imray is the former Immeril, birthplace of O-gon-cho. As such, it is her home in a much deeper way than could ever be the case for uKulwa.

I say once again that negotiation is not necessary on O-gon-cho's part because her claims are reasonable as it is. A slice of land in Southern Imray. uKulwa feels the need to negotiate and "sweeten the deal" because he knows his demands (to take the entirety of Imray and evict O-gon-cho's followers) are innately unreasonable.

[Madadeva]

Are you speaking for the Sunrise Court god of Vengeance? Your strident tone seems to suggest that you do!

While I hold no claim over either parties ... what happens to all life concerns me.

It sounds like the God of War is simply acknowledging the calling of his domain ... and trying to protect o-gon-cho's nomadic centaurs from any conflicts that will naturally arise given his followers nature.

In such a move, I judge uKulwa's offer to be in the service of protecting life. It is an honorable offer. *bows* You have time to reconsider youngling goddess of light. I would suggest you focus on the protection of your followers' lives rather than any wounding of your pride!

[Arcadia]

As covered before, any offer for compensation, be it gold or services is meaningless when it comes to something irreplaceable like a home.

I agree. It is just as much his followers home as it is hers. She has no more claim over it than he does.

What loss of home? O-gon-cho doesn't propose to evict uKulwa's followers from where they already are. There's the big difference. O-gon-cho wants the land between Zevente and Zendra, not the whole continent.

Those lands belong to his followers too. It is their home as well. Whether she wants the whole continent or not is not the issue. What she wants is to claim the same cities that belong to uKulwa's followers as well.

uKulwa's followers have to give up nothing because O-gon-cho doesn't claim the entire continent. uKulwa wants to take the whole continent, thereby evicting O-gon-cho's followers.

uKulwa is not evicting her followers any more than she is evicting his. He has offered to move her followers if they choose to leave. Do you honestly think that O-gon-cho is going to allow military men to romp freely through those cities, knowling full well that it is their nature to war? And if they begin warring against her followers - do you think she is going to turn away? No, she won't. So, in essence, she would require the same thing as uKulwa - that the inhabitants of her cities follow her or leave.

uKulwa is asking nothing more than that.

Their positions are very different. O-gon-cho is happy to split the land, uKulwa wants it all. O-gon-cho's proposal to take a slice of land in the south is obviously more reasonable than uKulwa's to take everything.

The majority of southern Imray is not settled. It has three cities. She wants two of the three settled cities and the forest (which in all actuality belongs to Zephyr, if I am not mistaken) and her nesting grounds in the desert which makes up a little more than half of southern Imray. Hardly a small plot of land.

You keep making reference to uKulwa's followers' lost homes. O-gon-cho is not trying to evict anyone from Imray. That's uKulwa's plan.

Again, that is not true. uKulwa is not going to evict anyone. They can stay as long as they follow him. He is giving them a choice to stay or to leave as any reasonable god would do.

In a way, O-gon-cho does have a greater claim on Imray than uKulwa does. O-gon-cho is not new to Eiran, and Imray is the former Immeril, birthplace of O-gon-cho. As such, it is her home in a much deeper way than could ever be the case for uKulwa.

That is faulty reasoning because if that were the case, then as the daughter of Bhakti and Jove, I could claim the continents of Shaldir, Malyth, and Kunis since they belonged to my parents and it was there that I was born. If I walked into those continents and laid claim to them, would you come to my defense and back my claim?

Do not forget too that I am the goddess of earth and all that land (earth) is mine. I can do with it whatever I choose. So, any claims to land are done at my good graces.

I say once again that negotiation is not necessary on O-gon-cho's part because her claims are reasonable as it is. A slice of land in Southern Imray. uKulwa feels the need to negotiate and "sweeten the deal" because he knows his demands (to take the entirety of Imray and evict O-gon-cho's followers) are innately unreasonable.

No, negotiation is entirely necessary. Because of O-gon-cho's demands with uKulwa, I now feel threatened that she will come north and make the same demands upon me for my lands due to some imagined claim. Yet, I do not have a court to back me.

It seems that she is indeed emboldened to make unfair demands upon others because the Sunrise Court feels that they can bully others. And of course, you would benefit and that therefore, explains your blind support of unfair and unreasonable "negotiations."

[Amplarx]

I agree. It is just as much his followers home as it is hers. She has no more claim over it than he does.

Already covered. She has a historic claim to the land.

Those lands belong to his followers too. It is their home as well. Whether she wants the whole continent or not is not the issue. What she wants is to claim the same cities that belong to uKulwa's followers as well.

In what way do these cities already belong to uKulwa? You talk as if everyone in these cities already worships the god of war!

uKulwa is not evicting her followers any more than she is evicting his. He has offered to move her followers if they choose to leave. Do you honestly think that O-gon-cho is going to allow military men to romp freely through those cities, knowling full well that it is their nature to war? And if they begin warring against her followers - do you think she is going to turn away? No, she won't. So, in essence, she would require the same thing as uKulwa - that the inhabitants of her cities follow her or leave.

You first make the assumption that followers of uKulwa will be banished from cities run by O-gon-cho's followers. Completely ungrounded, unless you've heard something I'm not privy to. COnclusions derived from such assumptions are empty.

The majority of southern Imray is not settled. It has three cities. She wants two of the three settled cities and the forest (which in all actuality belongs to Zephyr, if I am not mistaken) and her nesting grounds in the desert which makes up a little more than half of southern Imray. Hardly a small plot of land.

A smaller plot than the total domination uKulwa plans to enact.

Again, that is not true. uKulwa is not going to evict anyone. They can stay as long as they follow him. He is giving them a choice to stay or to leave as any reasonable god would do.

"Change your beliefs or leave" (the third implied choice being death) is an eviction notice if I ever saw one.

That is faulty reasoning because if that were the case, then as the daughter of Bhakti and Jove, I could claim the continents of Shaldir, Malyth, and Kunis since they belonged to my parents and it was there that I was born. If I walked into those continents and laid claim to them, would you come to my defense and back my claim?

This is not analogous. O-gon-cho is not claiming three entire continents. That said, if you made claim to a tract of land historically owned by your family and then someone else threatened your claim for no other reason than they fancied taking it, I would jump to your aid.

Do not forget too that I am the goddess of earth and all that land (earth) is mine. I can do with it whatever I choose. So, any claims to land are done at my good graces.

Make sure you ask my permission before you or any of your followers take revenge on anyone!

I'm being sarcastic by the way. I don't own revenge any more than you own all the land in Eiran.

No, negotiation is entirely necessary. Because of O-gon-cho's demands with uKulwa, I now feel threatened that she will come north and make the same demands upon me for my lands due to some imagined claim. Yet, I do not have a court to back me.

It seems that she is indeed emboldened to make unfair demands upon others because the Sunrise Court feels that they can bully others. And of course, you would benefit and that therefore, explains your blind support of unfair and unreasonable "negotiations."

Clearly you've put a lot of forethought into this; You've branded the god of light a warmonger and the god of war a peaceful neighbour; perhaps you should reconsider.

I do not speak for the sunrise court, I speak for the god of Vengeance. Nothing I do or say is representative of the court as a whole.

Respresenting the court is a job for the master, not for me.

[Mynaesos]

"We are made wise not by the recollection of our past, but by the responsibility for our future."
-G. B. Shaw

"Life can be found only in the present moment. The past is gone, the future is not yet here, and if we do not go back to ourselves in the present moment, we cannot be in touch with life."
-Thich Nhat Hanh

[Cryak]

"We are made wise not by the recollection of our past, but by the responsibility for our future."
-G. B. Shaw

"Life can be found only in the present moment. The past is gone, the future is not yet here, and if we do not go back to ourselves in the present moment, we cannot be in touch with life."
-Thich Nhat Hanh

Good thoughts, although I see in them wisdom that was perhaps not intended.

As many of us were watching with pointed interest when the Interdiction went up, though we were yet to manifest as Gods, the world has taken quite a few turns since the last Age of the Gods. Since that time only Bhakti and Jove's son and daughter, Zephyr and Calais, were left on Eiran during the interdiction and, even then, they were powerless as deities. When the wall went up separating the world from divine power, all previous claims were laid to waste. There has simply been to much time passed for any previous land or city claims to still hold. The world has moved on.

O-gon-cho chose this place to start her faith, and she will reap the consequences of that choice. Whether she wants to or not.

[Anaya]

It would seem to me that O-gon-cho is no more required to accede to uKulwa's request to leave Imray than uKulwa is to accede to her request that the continent be shared. And if her historic claim to the land is invalidated by the long years that have passed since her departure from Eiran, that does not make his claim any more valid.

If I advised Devaguhya that the island on which Ghalali rests belongs to me and that he will be required to move, I suspect I would be greeted by scorn and indignation, regardless of whether or not I intended to help his followers relocate to somewhere that I felt to be more suitable.

Such reaction would be natural, although I suspect my fellow deities in the Sunrise Court would rejoice at the misfortune of a member of Sunset, just as Sunset's members seem to be relishing O-gon-cho's potential defeat at uKulwa's hands.

We shall have to see whether War is as all-powerful as they anticipate.

[uKulwa]

The inhabitants of those cities worship nobody right now. Neither I nor O-Gon-Cho can claim them as ours, we may only excercise our right to attempt to claim them.

Once they are claimed, only then will their inhabitants be worshippers of one or the other of us, and only then will we know what is the path forward. I do not seek to dissuade others from her worship. Only to persuade them to worship her from elsewhere.

And if neither claim has more weight than the other, which I accept, then it is meet that we two alone contest for the lands of our vision. The world has turned...The last age is dead, and we arisen must write anew on the wiped clean slate that is Eiran.

I make no pretty moral justifications. I need none. Nor do I care for the opinion of the courts or any other god. The truth is simple. My vision for the tribes of uKulwa is fixed, no less than hers for her future. All life is struggle.

Am I unreasonable? *shrug* Perhaps, although conflict does not have to be inevitable between us. I would be far happier at so early a date to have peace. But my vision is clear.

If the holding of a single city is valued more than my friendship and support, then so be it. Let the worth of our respective claims be tested for merit in the furnace of contest.

[Arcadia]

Amplarx, we must agree to disagree at this point in time. I have made my position clear, as you have, and I will not change from it.

O-gon-cho has no more claim than anyone else. She deludes herself into thinking that she does.

Tawahiri is correct that what has gone before has long since passed and O-gon-cho has made a choice of where to begin her new life on Eiran.

This is not the Eiran of 3,000 years ago.

Aarklar wrote:

"We are made wise not by the recollection of our past, but by the responsibility for our future."
-G. B. Shaw

"Life can be found only in the present moment. The past is gone, the future is not yet here, and if we do not go back to ourselves in the present moment, we cannot be in touch with life."
-Thich Nhat Hanh

I agree, Aarklar, with your endless wisdom.

Anaya wrote:

It would seem to me that O-gon-cho is no more required to accede to uKulwa's request to leave Imray than uKulwa is to accede to her request that the continent be shared. And if her historic claim to the land is invalidated by the long years that have passed since her departure from Eiran, that does not make his claim any more valid.

This is exactly my point. They both have equal claim. uKulwa has made a conscientious effort to fairly purchase the land from O-gon-cho whereas she has made no offer. She demands it outright, claiming it is more hers than his.

It seems that the Sunrise Court backs her in this claim, attempting I think to bully unaligned gods.

As a result, Amplarx claims she needs to make no negotiations at all because he thinks she owns it outright.

We shall have to see whether War is as all-powerful as they anticipate.

This seems a rather ominous prediction, Anaya. Perhaps more of the Sunrise Court will be involved in this conflict than previously thought. The Sunrise Court is banding together to intimidate and bully unaligned gods.

[Bel]

The Sunrise Court is banding together to intimidate and bully unaligned gods.

Such calumny is ill-suited to come from the lips of a Goddess. Were these demands being issued by a god of another alignment, the response would be the same.