Lord Foul's nature?

[Endymion9]

As I've seen others do, I will apologize if I am repeating discussions you've already had in depth here over the years, but on scanning I haven't found them yet.

So I'll ask. What do you consider Lord Foul's nature to be? In the stickied Q&A I see an answer from SRD that Lord Foul couldn't drink the Earthblood himself because he's incorporal. Yet he held TC's ring in WGW. Also he was welcomed and made a lord in Kevin's time, IIRC. Was that a person he was possessing? Did he have a body to be a lord?

Thanks for your conjectures.

[dlbpharmd]

Excellent questions. Wish I had answers.

[Zarathustra]

If LF could "put on" the ring, yet he couldn't drink EB because he is incorporeal, then either the ring has a metaphysical status different from EB, or Donaldson has contradicted himself. (It wouldn't be the first time he has goofed--as he says: internal consistency is a bitch.)

However, I think that there's good reason to consider the white gold isn't in the same class as EB. EB is the essence of the Land (or that world), the essence of its incarnate nature. It is the highest expression of Land's (and the world's) nature. But white gold comes from outside of it, like LF himself. What is physical in TC's world isn't necessarily physical in the Land. In fact, I believe that translation into the Land is something entirely nonphysical, especially since one leaves one's body behind in order to get there. I think the white gold isn't really a piece of metal in the Land, but rather a metaphor or archetypal "substance" which exists in the same metaphysical level of LF himself.

Or, it's possible that Donaldson must messed up. But I prefer the more complex explanation.

[Endymion9]

Good thoughts. I want to explain that I'm not a nitpicker that tries to find fault with an author. I just want to understand the rules myself. If every once in awhile an author is inconsistent it's ok with me, as long as I understand that I didn't miss something.

My first reaction is I must just be too dense today to understand <grin>.

I also forget that LF is from outside the land. He is however a unique case from anyone else that has come into the land as they all seem to have come in with corporal bodies.

[Ur Dead]

Wild Magic is suppose to be the keystone to creation. The Creator used it to form the world. It is not accessable except by using White Gold. An alloy that can not be created on that world. (or so never tried to be made)

Foul being inprisoned on that world doesn't have a means of calling it forth from his being. He may have an abundent use of that souce of engery if he was outside of the world, but is constrained while being in prison. Thus he needs the metal to have access.

In WGW, he used Wild magic so much that he depleted his power and self, for a period of time. That indicates he is is a being able to call forth Wild Magic. He can't be destroyed but diminished while in the world. Again he may have Wild Magic within him but is contrained by his prison.

He is like the Creator, but he is held in the Creator's desire. And guess whom made the rules.

[wayfriend]

I don't believe that Foul was incorporeal. The events in the final chapters of LFB demonstrate that he was very corporeal, at least at that time.

I think that Donaldson contradicted himself with this Earthblood business. But only as an effort to dodge a question in the GI.

Foul is unable to drink the Earthblood for other reasons. I presume revealing those reasons would spoil someing in the Final Chronicles.

[Relayer]

I wonder if it's that Earthblood is just so antithetical to his nature that he can't or won't... sort of the same way the Ramen believe no servant of Fangthane will eat aliantha.

Which doesn't explain how Roger was about to drink it. Except that he serves Kasty more than Foul.

[wayfriend]

It may be that we've come back (again) to this idea: Foul doesn't want to destroy the Earth if he doesn't have the ring.

But he could sure make people miserable with the Earthblood, tho. So there has to be another reason.

This reminds me of the similar question, why can't Foul move through time, if it's possible, and the Elohim and some insequent can do it?

Perhaps the Elohim are powerful enough to stop him if he doesn't have the ring. Which might be something that Donaldson considers a spoiler, and which is why he avoided the question.

[Ur Dead]

It may be that we've come back (again) to this idea: Foul doesn't want to destroy the Earth if he doesn't have the ring.

He is like the Creator, but he is held in the Creator's desire. And guess whom made the rules.

Donnelson really did, but hey..

[Zarathustra]

I think it's time for a GI question. Go for it Endymion9! If you don't, I will.

Re: LF's incorporeality . . . I think his transformation back to a babe in LFB was symbolic. In fact, I remember Donaldson saying so. Therefore, I don't think we can conclude that he had a body. The end of LFB does seem to contradict every other appearance of the Despiser. Usually, he's no more than a smokey figure with eyes like fangs. I've always considered him incorporeal, and Donaldson said so explicitly. I'd really like to have this settled.

[wayfriend]

BTW,

Within Covenant's clench, Lord Foul the Despiser began to appear.

By faint degrees, he became material, drifted from corporeal absence to presence. Perfectly molded limbs, as pure as alabaster, grew slowly visible-an old, grand, leonine head, magisterially crowned and bearded with flowing white hair-an enrobed, dignified trunk, broad and solid with strength. Only his eyes showed no change, no stern, impressive surge of incarnation; they lashed constantly at Covenant like fangs wet with venom.

When he was fully present, Lord Foul folded his arms on his chest and said harshly, "Now you do in truth see me, groveler."

The above says to me that, underneath his aura, he was corporeal. At that time: Material. Corporeal presence. Solid. Incarnation.

In my opinion he is like the Valar: he is capable of a physical body, but can exist as a pure spirit as well.

[Endymion9]

I think it's time for a GI question. Go for it Endymion9! If you don't, I will.

Re: LF's incorporeality . . . I think his transformation back to a babe in LFB was symbolic. In fact, I remember Donaldson saying so. Therefore, I don't think we can conclude that he had a body. The end of LFB does seem to contradict every other appearance of the Despiser. Usually, he's no more than a smokey figure with eyes like fangs. I've always considered him incorporeal, and Donaldson said so explicitly. I'd really like to have this settled.

Please go for it Malik. I'm new here and still haven't quite figured out what GI even means. (though I've read some of them).

Guest Interview?
Guest Inquisition?
Gory Imagination?

[wayfriend]

The Gradual Interview on the Stephen R Donaldson website.

[Endymion9]

The Gradual Interview on the Stephen R Donaldson website.

Thanks for the info, Wayfriend!

[Endymion9]

As I read the thoughts in the Afraid of the last two books thread , it brings me back to this idea. What is LF? Is he a force only, despite?

Or is he a creature full of despite? Some of the GI quotes in the Afraid thread seem to imply that possibly LF can grow? That the creator *might* have hope that even LF can be redeemed? Is that a possible outcome of the "merging" many mention of TC/LF at the end of WGW? Instead of TC taking LF inside himself and reconsiling himself with despite can LF himself be turned/redeemed from despite through growth?

Not an outcome I expect, but just saw shadows of that idea in the GI quotes. Or am I just wandering in the haze? <grin>

[wayfriend]

Foul does seem to be both an individual and a personification of a cosmic demiurge.

It's like he gets to live in the best of both worlds. Chill it out, take it slow; then he rocks out the show.

[DukkhaWaynhim]

Total stab in the dark, but what if the manner in which LF achieves his victory can give him more satisfaction / power over besting the Creator? LF is a manipulator that does not like to get his hands dirty. If he can get a creation to willingly undo the fabric of Time, will that give him some wieldable power over the Creator?

dw