Harrow vs. Mahdoubt question

[Endymion9]

As I understood it, if one of the Insequent tries to interrupt another's purposes that Insequent is destroyed after a period of madness.

And the reasoning for the Mahdoubt being destroyed or destorying herself was that she opposed the Harrow's purpose in taking Linden's instruments of power and her life.

But hadn't the Mahdoubt set up that one of her "purposes" was to protect Linden? So why doesn't the Harrow suffer this fate for attacking Linden?

[Zarathustra]

That's a very good question. Honestly, it never occurred to me. But it's right there, staring us in the face. Maybe the Harrow made it his purpose to study the white gold long before Linden arrived, and therefore his purpose precedes the Mahdoubt's purpose?

I thought the battle between the Mahdoubt and the Harrow was one of the best uses of magic in FR. That was an original showdown. It's one instance where the Insequent didn't bother me (probably because this battle wasn't used to explain something crucial in the past).

However, as cool as that battle was, I felt the "going crazy" thing wasn't explained well enough, as your question points out. I do like the passing of the Mahdoubt; that was a great character moment. It really touched me. However, I had some lingering problems about it that I couldn't quite pin down. Perhaps your question is one part of it. But it also felt like a convenient way to tug at readers' heartstrings. It was effective, but was it necessary?

[Endymion9]

Well my first thought was that it had to be an envolvment in an Insequent's field of study. So maybe you are right. Maybe the instruments of power are in the Harrow's field of study whereas protecting Linden didn't fall within the Mahdoubt's field of study, time travel.

[Seareach]

great question Endymion9! One I hadn't thought of either. Is it actually stated in the text that one of the Mahdoubt's purposes is to protect Linden or is it just implied (I've got a memory like a sieve so that's why I'm asking).

[I'm Murrin]

To protect Linden even against other Insequent as a purpose would require her to commit from the beginning to breaking the Insequent's rules and dooming herself, and I do not believe she would choose a purpose that required that.

[Endymion9]

To protect Linden even against other Insequent as a purpose would require her to commit from the beginning to breaking the Insequent's rules and dooming herself, and I do not believe she would choose a purpose that required that.

But you could say the same thing about the Harrow. To commit to taking the instruments of power, even against another Insequent's stated purpose of protecting the holder of the instruments of power.....and so on and so on.

Seareach,
I don't believe it was ever stated that in an official fashion, but the Mahdoubt did say that she had waited a long time (centuries?) to protect Linden because she was worth protecting, or something to that effect.

Unless my mind is failing me and I'm imaginging that she said that <grin>.

[Endymion9]

Doubting myself, decided to try to look up the passages and found this...on another subject.

Saw some discussion as to whether the Vizard is dead or not.

Mahdoubt speaking to Linden immediately after her battle with the Harrow.

"the Vizard sought to thwart the Harrow's desires, for he deemed them contrary to his own purposes. Thus was the Vizard lost to use and name and life. The outcome of what the Mahdoubt has done will not be otherwise."

and later Mahdoubt says to the Haruchai, "You have been informed of the Vizard's passing."

Seems pretty final for the Vizard.

So I think I was misremembering. The Mahdoubt does not state, at least in this passage, that her purpose was to protect Linden but only that she chooses to trust Linden.

Later Mahdoubt does say to Linden "Therefore she believes that you must not be turned aside." Sounds kinda like a vow of protection.

I don't have references for this but I believe the Mahdoubts purpose was to trust Linden. All of her time study was to be able to help Linden achieve her purpose. Against this theory is the Mahdoubt stating that she cannot see future events. So was she totally unaware of Linden before she arrived in the Land? Was her trip to rescue her in the past a reaction only to seeing her taken?

Just seemed to me like the Mahdoubt could see some prophetic things but not the outcome of everything, from things she said.

[Seareach]

I'll try and look through the text a bit later. I think there's a difference between choosing to trust Linden and a life's purpose to trust/protect Linden. One could say that perhaps all the Mahdoubt's learning resulted in her being able to help Linden. But, considering the Mahdoubt has been around (I assume) longer than Linden, then I can't see her initial purpose being assisting/protecting Linden.

[Endymion9]

I feel on very weak footing on this one....just a feeling. And not that the Mahdoubt was "born" with this purpose, but maybe in her study of time she came across this purpose. Rather than merely reacting to Linden's appearance in the Land. Like something she had been working too for a long, long time.

[IrrationalSanity]

It is a very subtle thing, this "thwarting". The Mahdoubt gave Linden her true name, knowing full well that it would be invoked, and probably the situation and result of that invocation.

To that extent, while she thwarted the Harrow's desires, he actually submitted to hers. I suspect this is one of those situations where by agreeing to fulfilling his desires "her way", he in essence becomes one of Linden's best protectors. He needs that chance to offer her the deal of the century.

Thus he fulfills, rather than thwarts, the Mahdoubt's pupose.

[Ur Dead]

The Mahdoubt gave Linden her name. Her desire was to help Linden. Her specality is time travel or manipulation. The Mahdoubt also knew that Linden needed the Harrow in the future than Linden needed her.

The Mahdoubt choice in battle was to sent him(Harrow) so far back in time that his purpose would have been voided.
But the Mahdoubt wanted to persuade the Harrow to help Linden. There is the difference. The Mahdoubt desired to help Linden, it wasn't her purpose.

The battle was between two Insequent's powers. Which one was greater. She convinced the Harrow to help Linden but the Mahdoubt lost the battle. The Harrow was persuaded to forgo and help Linden and wasn't sent back into time. The Mahdoubt stopped after he agreed and swore to help Linden.

So far as the battle was concern. The Mahdoubt lost and the Harrow won. The Mahdoubt paid the price according to their designated wurd/laws or whatever conditions control the Insequent race. But the grander desire of the Mahdoubt was achieved.The Mahdoubt most probably knew what was going to happen, she was old by Insequent's standards. She was a student of time and most probably a Master of it.

I wouldn't be suprised if she shows up in the next two books. In a younger version.

[Relayer]

It is a very subtle thing, this "thwarting". The Mahdoubt gave Linden her true name, knowing full well that it would be invoked, and probably the situation and result of that invocation.

To that extent, while she thwarted the Harrow's desires, he actually submitted to hers. I suspect this is one of those situations where by agreeing to fulfilling his desires "her way", he in essence becomes one of Linden's best protectors. He needs that chance to offer her the deal of the century.

Thus he fulfills, rather than thwarts, the Mahdoubt's pupose.

This is possible... he may well protect her from *anyone else* but only in order to achieve his own purposes.

But as I posted in another thread I suspect the deal is not going to be very palatable for Linden. Along w/ the ring and staff, the Harrow "covets the unfettered wrath at the center of your heart." He intends to consume her.

[IrrationalSanity]

Thus he fulfills, rather than thwarts, the Mahdoubt's pupose.

This is possible... he may well protect her from *anyone else* but only in order to achieve his own purposes.

But as I posted in another thread I suspect the deal is not going to be very palatable for Linden. Along w/ the ring and staff, the Harrow "covets the unfettered wrath at the center of your heart." He intends to consume her.

This consumption is the aspect of his desires that was thwarted. The ring and staff? Delayed, certainly, but not neccessarily prevented. While they are certainly useful trinkets, remember, as with all power, these are merely tools - means of expression. The power itself resides within Linden, and that power has been effectively denied to him.

[Relayer]

IS, that's a good point. I'll have to check that out when I re-read. I suspect, however, that the Mahdoubt's deal only pertains to the Harrow refraining from "making an attempt on Linden's person" or however it was phrased.

But when it comes down to it, he's going to offer to take her to JJ in exchange for what he wants -- and she's going to have to *choose* whether or not to give herself up. This is a very different situation which I don't think falls under the Mahdoubt's deal.

[wayfriend]

The woman sighed. "It is the way of the Insequent, inherent in us. It is required of the Mandoubt by birth rather than by choice or scruple. The Insequent exert no demands upon each other, for the cost of such conflict would be extinction."

Make no demands.

The Mahdoubt may declare it her chosen purpose to protect Linden. But when the Harrow attacks her, he does not make any demand of the Mahdoubt. He does not demand that she step aside, nor that she interfere, nor that she do any other thing.

Therefore, the Harrow does not run afoul of any of the Insequent's rules.

The Mahdoubt, on the other hand, demanded of the Harrow that he desist.

[Bran Pendragon]

Plus, the commitment to protect Linden from any harm was a pretty vague thing from my perspective. She elected to help out a few times, and said that she could summon her in future if she wanted. And more importantly, the difference between what the Mahdoubt did and what the Harrow did was that she FORCED him to abandon his goals, whereas he allowed her to continue hers.

By the way, someone earlier mentioned that the Mahdoubt lost to the Harrow in their battle of magic. I think that is clearly not the case - after a bit of mental sizing up and some initial exchanges, the Harrow acknowledges that he can't beat the Mahdoubt without losing himself, so concedes defeat, but does so knowing that doing so will mean that the Mahdoubt will die as well.

[Pumaman]

but does so knowing that doing so will mean that the Mahdoubt will die as well.

So she's off to see the Vizard..?


Sorry...

[Unfettered One]

but does so knowing that doing so will mean that the Mahdoubt will die as well.

So she's off to see the Vizard..?


Sorry...

Sorry, is your name Pumaman, or Punaman?