Berek, Old Lords

[SGuilfoyle1966]

There is a LOT of stuff we are told about Berek by Roger as TC.

Perhaps one or two things he says are even confirmed when we meet the big guy.

But the main thrust of it was the Old Lords were ALL about despair. They got all their big victories from despair. I do NOT see that in Berek.

How much stock do you put in what Roger says about Berek?

It is nice to see him in here, and it is nice to see the "real" man, not the archetypal legend up on the arras. But I wonder if we are meant to believe all that Roger says about all the Old Lords because we are seeing "the real" Berek and a few things are confirmed.

[earthbrah]

You know, I agree with you here. Berek was supposedly able to hear the Earth speaking to him on Mt. Thunder due to the extremity of his despair. But then the Theomach seems to refute that by teaching him the Seven Words and their meaning. (Damn, I need to reread FR. Gotta get through the rest again before I get there, though...)

But I just didn't see a man affected or even necessarily touched by despair when we met him.

I must meditate on this awhile...

[MsMary]

My view is that I wouldn't necessarily take everything Roger says at face value. We know he has his own agenda.

[Relayer]

Ms M, I think you're right about that. But some things are confirmed when we meet Berek. Roger also says a whole lot of things about "himself" (ie TC) and at least some of them are true too.

As I said in another thread, I think the point of much of Roger's rambling about Berek and the Old Lords was to prepare the way for our meeting him... removing some of the aura of the Legend and learning that many of the stories were embellishments. The Theomach says something about this too, how history is at once both oversimplified and overembellished.

IIRC, Berek did hear something on Mt. Thunder (though not exactly speech), that he understood to speak the Seven Words but then had forgotten. The Theomach told him this, and then taught them to him again.

[High Lord Tolkien]

I thought it was only Kevin that was all about despair.
And even then it was only towards the end.

The Old Lords got their "power" from passion and no restrictions.
Unlike the New Lords that crippled themselves with the Oath of Peace.

[Ur Dead]

When you read those chapters in FR. Berek's army is near collaspe. He has regrouped and is planning his next move. He darn near lost the war a few days earlier. Then in his utmost despair, pledged his alleigence to whatever power that would come and aid him. He was answered by the Land. He unknowingly said the seven words while in a state of mind. A mind of total despair.
The power changed him and the words left his conscious memory.

The only thing he has to his advantage is his traitorous warhaft and an understanding of a former comrade's tactics.

His army is scavaging for food and resources. He doesn't have new recruits so his army is dwindling.
Before Linden's healing , his wounded are dying in droves.

He is hanging by a thread and the situration is very despairing. He doesn't show it because his troops will pick up on it. But he knows despair. He has the experience to face those odds and do his best to overcome it. His is a more death than life event.

Linden's healing, showing him hurtloam and the Theomach's teaching was a boon beyond expectations.
Berek took all that and created a major victory instead of a normal victory. His war victory allowed him to become the first high lord. That is the stuff of legends.

That's why that section of FR gets my seal of approval. Berek wasn't a mystical being thats a legend. He was a exceptional personality whom transformed himself into a legend.

[SGuilfoyle1966]

I thought it was only Kevin that was all about despair.
And even then it was only towards the end.

The Old Lords got their "power" from passion and no restrictions.
Unlike the New Lords that crippled themselves with the Oath of Peace.

I am almost directly quoting Roger as TC when I say, "The Old Lords were all about despair."

I like the above comment that said they got their power from their passion, but Kevin mistook his love and his passion.

And factor in, Roger as TC couldn't lie about anything factual that happened. He did lie about what his motives were and the results of Linden's actions, but he can't lie about the facts.

[SkurjMaster]

TC's attempt to build or rebuild a soryline by re-versioning past events is disappointing for me. When we read about Berek Lord-Fatherer in the the first Chronicles he is helped by the Earth itself and as a result rises from his despair to become one of the greatest Lords ever, if not THE greatest. This is not as great a problem for the story as, say, the sequel to Highlander where all the immortals turned out to really be from outer space, but it still creates a wrenching feeling in the storyline.

It would have been easier to accept the intervention of the Theomach if it had become necessary as a result of someone else's interruption of the timeline. For example, if Esmer or some time-travel-capable being had changed the original course of events. Then the Theomach would simply be reasserting the proper order.

Plus, the majesty, manner, and carriage of the new lords in the First Chronicles suggests at least the same of the old Lords. We never believed that the old Lords were just some guys who got help along the way and would have failed without it.

The Theomach is inserted as an integral part of the original storyline, albeit unknown to the lords of the first Chronicles. The Haruchai knew about the Insequent but kept it to themselves simply becuase no one knew enough to ask??!!!

That said, given that TC has chosen this strategy to relate past events, he does a pretty good job of execution.

I believe that there are other similar thoughts in other threads, so please forgive me if this one is a little out of place.