Silence of the DeaD?

[Pumaman]

Sorry if this was covered, but who (do you think) commanded the dead to silence in Andelain?

[MsMary]

Why do you think it was a command by anyone specific?

[iQuestor]

Edit:

MS Mary -- I would agree it was by one specific entity:

quote:

Stave frowned. "Be still Chosen," he said in a constrained hush. "The Dead have no words for your ears. They are forbidden to address you. In this place, your deeds must be your own, unpersuaded for good or ill by the counsel and knowledge of those who have perished. So it has been commanded, and the Dead obey. "

FR, pp 582.


Thats a good question. I guess we have to begin by asking, who has the power and motivation to command their silence?

1. TC, as the Arch, may be able to command them. He also told Linden to find me, so he did want her to come, but he knows the necessity of free choice. He is a good candidate. He definately has the power and motivation to command them.
2. Someone who is very in tune with Earthpower could presumable do so, Since Andelain is a repository of earthpower, so perhaps the Elohim could do it, but I doubt it. They would be motivated to keep Linden out of Andelain.
3. Lord Foul - I doubt he would bother. He'd want them to talk; more opinions and input would muddy the water and make Linden even more confused and misdirected.
4. Creator -- He can't -- that would be him touching and interfering, and that would destroy it.
5. The Insequent -- I dont think that is their particular power.
6. The Wraiths? Now here is an idea. They might have the power to do so -- they prevented GaleWrath from entering to harm Linden, and they are in tune with Andelain, and have a special connection with the Andelainian Dead. Perhaps the Krill, which is the power that is preserving Andelain, also allows them the power to command the dead.
7. One of the powerful dead? Among them, Sunder and Holian would seem to hold power. And when they arrived:

Linden knew them. They were Sunder Graveler and Holian Eh-Brand, Anele's parents.
When they passed between the reverent flames, they stopped partway down the slope. They seemed strangely commanding and penitent, and their moonstone eyes gleamed with austere compassion.

FR, pp 579.

SO I think its narrowed down to TC, Sunder and Holian, or the Wraiths. All three seem to have the power and motvie to keep them silent.

I dont think its the Wraiths, it doesnt seem their style, and they might not have the -- intelligence to do that. They'd just keep them from appearing if they could, much like they kept Galewrath out of Andelain.

TC -- it could be him, but I know how frustrated he was when he couldnt get answers out of the dead.

I lean more towards Sunder and Holian -- if anyone among the dead has power, its them, and they are intimately connected with Andelain and Linden.

[iQuestor]

SOrry for the double post -- the Text actuall holds the Answer.

MS Mary -- I would agree it was by some specific entities:

quote:

Stave frowned. "Be still Chosen," he said in a constrained hush. "The Dead have no words for your ears. They are forbidden to address you. In this place, your deeds must be your own, unpersuaded for good or ill by the counsel and knowledge of those who have perished. So it has been commanded, and the Dead obey. "

FR, pp 582.

and another on pp 581:

Stave said:

"This night holds no emnity", he said as if to himself. "The dead neither spurn nor oppose you. Rather they seek to make way. Other spirits inhabit Andelain, Spectres which may not be denied. While Loric's Krill burns, their might requires compliance. They will come to affirm the necessity of freedom. "

then later:

Other spirits inhabit Andelain--
Who but Covenant had the stature to command the Dead?

The answer came from the vale from four directions. ... They were tall, prodigiously tall, not because they were giants, but because their spirits were great. ...

WIth a shock, Linden saw it was berek Halfhand.

The answer is the four high lords: Berek, Damelon, Loric VileSilencer, and Kevin Landwaster.


FR, pp 582.

[ninjaboy]

I'd been troubled by that question for a while, and am not entirely convinced that the four high lords are the answer..

The phrase "Other spirits inhabit Andelain, Spectres which may not be denied." is a reference to something we haven't met yet, I believe, as these 'Spectres' mentioned seem to be something different to the Dead..

[iQuestor]

I translate the quote I provided as the answer -- it as much as says so...

[I'm Murrin]

It does seem to say that is the answer. However the previous quotes imply a difference between the "Spectres" doing the commanding and "the Dead". Might just be a poor choice of words that gives the implication, though, as the last one seems clear-cut.

[earthbrah]

Ninjaboy, I have to say that I think Doar is right here. I mean, we get so few explicit answers in these books; this seems to be one of them, though.

Like Doar said, the text says it rather clearly.

[IrrationalSanity]

All I can say to this is - remember the cruciality of Point of View as it relates to the "accuracy" of what is shown...

[Ur Dead]

I don't know , I think Nijaboy might be on to something. The only top power that might be able to silence the dead is TC. But he too was forbidden. The four high lords weren't talking either, like they were constrainted.
The Insequent and Elohim were subdued and didn't offer any help, sorta like they were forbidden to offer advice.

How about this idea. Andelain itself was the power that compelled silence.
Andelain is the heart of the earth and with the growth of Salva Gildenbourne. The mind or new mind of the one forest is reawaking.

[iQuestor]

All I can say to this is - remember the cruciality of Point of View as it relates to the "accuracy" of what is shown...

IrrationalSanity -- I know SRD often misdirects us, but in this case, I dont think he is, because I dont see how *who* commanded the dead to silence matters beyond the scene.

Ur-Dead said:

...The four high lords weren't talking either, like they were constrainted.

The four High Lords were silent themselves because they knew (as Stave put it) the necessity of Freedom, so they constrained the others, then agreed to constrain themselves. What good is it to command others to silence because its necessary, only to speak yourself and screw it up.

edit: TC also knew the necessity of freedom, probsably better than the High Lords. He would have also kept quiet.

SRD wrote:

They were tall, prodigiously tall, not because they were giants, but because their spirits were great. ...

The fact that the spectres appeared large and powerful is SRD Telling us that they had the power and were responsible for the commandment.

[earthbrah]

Ur Dead wrote:

How about this idea. Andelain itself was the power that compelled silence.
Andelain is the heart of the earth and with the growth of Salva Gildenbourne. The mind or new mind of the one forest is reawaking.

Don't you think this is sort of self-contradictory? If the spirit of Andelain, or the resurging consciousness of the Forest through Salva Gildenborne, is what compelled the Dead to their silence, doesn't that imply that this spirit is also dead, not reawakening?

I like the idea that this might be the case, that Andelain itself, or the new Forest, is what compelled them...but it's a stretch in my mind. I think the specter/spirit that compelled them is either the four Old Lords, or TC.

[wayfriend]

This seems related to the concept that the Theomach brought up, that Linden "is" the Arch of Time while she is in the past. Meaning that she is the focus, she is the discriminant: what preserves or breaks the Arch is decided by what happens to her.

The Dead are similar. They know that her position is so momentous, is such a fulcrum, that they cannot queer it by revealing anything. So they won't speak to her.

Contrast this with Infelice, who has no limits at all in telling Linden what she should do, in her opinion.

The "Spectres" and "Other Powers" need not be the ones silencing the Dead.

[iQuestor]

WF, thanks for your input. What about this quote, then:

Stave said:

"This night holds no emnity", he said as if to himself. "The dead neither spurn nor oppose you. Rather they seek to make way. Other spirits inhabit Andelain, Spectres which may not be denied. While Loric's Krill burns, their might requires compliance. They will come to affirm the necessity of freedom. "

then later: (Linden's thoughts)

Other spirits inhabit Andelain--
Who but Covenant had the stature to command the Dead?

The answer came from the vale from four directions. ... They were tall, prodigiously tall, not because they were giants, but because their spirits were great. ...

WIth a shock, Linden saw it was berek Halfhand.

[amanibhavam]

Yes, those two quotes do seem to point in that direction, although this in itself is a bit strange, as the Old Lords are also "dead", can hardly be classified as "other spirits".

[wayfriend]

The Dead seek to make way. That sounds voluntary to me. Where do you see a compulsion?

The dead neither spurn nor oppose you. To me, this means that the reason for their silence is benign. And also voluntary: the sentence would be academic of the Dead were compelled.

Other spirits inhabit Andelain, Spectres which may not be denied. While Loric's Krill burns, their might requires compliance.
This means only that the Dead respect these other forces, and give them precidence.

They will come to affirm the necessity of freedom. This is the most important bit. The words of the Dead interfere with freedom, coming as they do from a privileged source. Their knowledge is a burden, not a help. Mhoram's spirit said as much in TWL.

The answer came from the vale from four directions. ... They were tall, prodigiously tall, not because they were giants, but because their spirits were great. And so it turns out that the "Spectres" who "may not be denied" were, in fact, others of the Dead.

Hypothesis: the Dead have something going on. Something that precludes their telling Linden anything.

My hypothesis is that the Dead wanted to ensure that Linden chose freely when she resurrected Covenant.

Who else insists on the necessity of freedom? The Creator, and Foul. All the biggies. Not the Elohim, noticably. Without freedom, people become a Tool, and become ineffectual.

Conclusion: Because he is summoned from the Dead, Covenant could become someones Tool. If the Dead interfere, he would be a Tool of the Dead. Or a Tool of Linden. And that would limit what he could do.

Edit: or maybe he'll end up being Linden's Tool anyway. Which would explain the "what have you done". But I hope not: the Creator and Foul did not make a Tool of anyone that the chose.

[iQuestor]

The Dead seek to make way. That sounds voluntary to me. Where do you see a compulsion?

The dead neither spurn nor oppose you. To me, this means that the reason for their silence is benign. And also voluntary: the sentence would be academic of the Dead were compelled.

Other spirits inhabit Andelain, Spectres which may not be denied. While Loric's Krill burns, their might requires compliance.
This means only that the Dead respect these other forces, and give them precidence.

They will come to affirm the necessity of freedom. This is the most important bit. The words of the Dead interfere with freedom, coming as they do from a privileged source. Their knowledge is a burden, not a help. Mhoram's spirit said as much in TWL.

The answer came from the vale from four directions. ... They were tall, prodigiously tall, not because they were giants, but because their spirits were great. And so it turns out that the "Spectres" who "may not be denied" were, in fact, others of the Dead.

Hypothesis: the Dead have something going on. Something that precludes their telling Linden anything.

My hypothesis is that the Dead wanted to ensure that Linden chose freely when she resurrected Covenant.

Who else insists on the necessity of freedom? The Creator, and Foul. All the biggies. Not the Elohim, noticably. Without freedom, people become a Tool, and become ineffectual.

Conclusion: Because he is summoned from the Dead, Covenant could become someones Tool. If the Dead interfere, he would be a Tool of the Dead. Or a Tool of Linden. And that would limit what he could do.

Edit: or maybe he'll end up being Linden's Tool anyway. Which would explain the "what have you done". But I hope not: the Creator and Foul did not make a Tool of anyone that the chose.

I agree. And specifically, the Dead High Lords were the ones who were doing the denying and affirming the necessity of Freedom. It might not have been a command per se, but probably a very firm suggestion.

The dead neither spurn nor oppose you.

I agree this is benign, but to me, it means that Stave is telling Linden the Dead arent being silent to spurn or oppose her, but doing the will or following the guidance of the Dead High Lords. I think he goes on to explain this later.

I personally think SRD intended to convey the Dead High Lords did in fact command the rest of the dead to not speak.

thanks WF!

[wayfriend]

"Heaven and Earth!" Sunder groaned. "This is the greatest madness of all." For a long moment, he remained still, scouring himself for endurance or wisdom. Please, Covenant breathed into the silence. Sunder. Please.

Abruptly, the Graveler muttered, "Ah, well. I have no longer any other demand upon me. And you are not to be denied. In the name of Nassic my father-and of Marid my friend, whose life you strove to redeem at your cost-I will guide you where you wish to go. Now eat. Even prophets and madmen require sustenance."

Sometimes "may not be denied" only means that someone makes a good case, and so you comply because you see that it's a good idea; it doesn't always imply compulsion.

[earthbrah]

Wayfriend wrote:

Sometimes "may not be denied" only means that someone makes a good case, and so you comply because you see that it's a good idea; it doesn't always imply compulsion.

I agree.

Wayfriend, you have convinced me without compulsion.

[Seppi2112]

"While Loric's Krill burns, their might requires compliance"

Who else can that be but Sunder and Hollian??