Lord Foul's Bane

Post by **Zephalephelah** » Tue Dec 02, 2003 11:36 am

Ryzel wrote:While I agree that there are many similarities between elements in LoTR and LFB I still feel that the book is not a copy by the simple fact that there are also a lot of important differences between the two works.

Well of course there are. I mean a different writer working on a huge work will make different distinctions of course, but come on, its pretty much transparent.

Post by **Furls Fire** » Tue Dec 02, 2003 4:57 pm

There is a huge difference between "copying" and "being similiar". The Chrons are not a "copy" of LOTR. The differences between the two works far outweigh their superficial similarities. All the things you mentioned are just surface stuff. The depth and plot and characters of each story is completely different. To "copy" something is to make an exact duplicate. This, in no way, fits that criteria.

Besides, the genius that is Donaldson, has no need to copy anyone.

Post by **Zephalephelah** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:27 am

I didn't say he plagiarized it. But that without it, he couldn't have created it.

Post by **Loredoctor** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:31 am

And without many other sources Tolkein would never have created LOTR.

Post by **Revan** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 11:31 am

Exaclty.

Post by **kastenessen** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 1:14 pm

Ryzel wrote:

While I agree that there are many similarities between elements in LotR and LFB I still feelthat the bookis not a copyby the simple fact that there are also a lot of important differences between the two works.

You're always dead on Ryzel, with one sentence!

Yes, without going into specifics I'd say they differ a lot, for instance in atmosphere and psychology. At once we have two totally different works...

Post by **Zephalephelah** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 2:29 pm

Ur-Vile wrote:And without many other sources Tolkein would never have created LOTR.

Really? List the book that LOTR copies as much as TCTC copies LOTR.

I didn't ever say it was a bad thing, rather that it was so utterly obvious.

Post by **danlo** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 4:35 pm

It's not just 1 book Zeph it's a number of books. Lord Dunsany (See: The King of Elfland's Daughter & others), William Morris (See: The Wood Beyond the World or The Well at the World's End) and a few others set the modern Fantasy "tone" at the beginning of the last century. As far as the "feel" of LOTR is concerned and the introduction of quest, high sword play, well drawn out lands and immortality I urge you to read Tolkien's predecesor E.R. Eddison- The Worm Oroborous followed by the Mezenatian Trilogy: The Mezentian Gate, A Fish Dinner at Memison & Mistress of Mistresses. Of course there are numerous other sources in Grimm, cultural mythos and some renowned classics that contribute to Tolkien as well...

And TCTC doesn't copy LOTR it compliments it and goes off in it's own direction and purpose---everything in human history is derivitate if you want to be REAL technical...

Post by **Zephalephelah** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 4:55 pm

danlo wrote:It's not just 1 book Zeph it's a number of books. Lord Dunsany (See: The King of Elfland's Daughter & others), William Morris (See: The Wood Beyond the World or The Well at the World's End) and a few others set the modern Fantasy "tone" at the beginning of the last century. As far as the "feel" of LOTR is concerned and the introduction of quest, high sword play, well drawn out lands and immortality I urge you to read Tolkien's predecesor E.R. Eddison- The Worm Oroborous followed by the Mezenatian Trilogy: The Mezentian Gate, A Fish Dinner at Memison & Mistress of Mistresses. Of course there are numerous other sources in Grimm, cultural mythos and some renowned classics that contribute to Tolkien as well...

And TCTC doesn't copy LOTR it compliments it and goes off in it's own direction and purpose---everything in human history is derivitate if you want to be REAL technical...

You're well versed. Admirable. Nevertheless, to me it is quite obvious that everything comes from Tolkien. I didn't expect it to be a popular opinion, I try not make popular opinions. I make my own opinions. I know it sounds like I'm attacking SRD in some way, but I'm not. I admire the man's ability. I'm just pointing out the obvious.

Post by **Furls Fire** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 5:23 pm

Actually, Tolkein himself has been quoted as saying that alot of his inspiration came from "Beowulf". In fact, alot of the names, such as Meduseld, come from "Beowulf".

The reason people believe that Tolkien was the "originator" of Fantasy fiction is because his was the first epic fantasy that was wildly accepted as a mainstream literary masterpiece. It truely was the epic that opened the door for authors like Donaldson to come along and walk in his footsteps.

But, he was the first to attribute other works as his inspiration as well, and all the praise showered on him, humbled him greatly.

Post by **Revan** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 6:04 pm

Zephalephelah wrote:You're well versed. Admirable. Nevertheless, to me it is quite obvious that everything comes from Tolkien. I didn't expect it to be a popular opinion, I try not make popular opinions. I make my own opinions. I know it sounds like I'm attacking SRD in some way, but I'm not. I admire the man's ability. I'm just pointing out the obvious.

Not everything comes from Tolkien, The haruchai, apart from the name, has nothing in common with LOTR.

Post by **danlo** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 7:17 pm

You can go on forever u know... There is no form of translation or summoning btween our world and theirs, the Council of Lords and the OofP is different, Amok, Kemper, Sangorgons, Stonedowners, Waynhim (or is that just a whole bunch of confused Smeagols?

), Elohim...I accept the Giants soley on their own terms and I see no comparision btween the Woodhelvenin and elves accept that the name kinda sound elvin and they live in the woods...haruchai, as DR just said, skrest, jerherrin, Vain...the Krill (but I guess that could be compared to "Sting" and it does have that Arthurian flavor to it...)...

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:11 am

Zephalephelah wrote:I didn't say he plagiarized it. But that without it, he couldn't have created it.

I know you're only trying to get a debate going by egging on all SRD fans, but you actually did post several times that SRD copied the LOTR.

Every writer is influenced by what he reads. I think it's a challenge for writers, especially those constricted by the bounds of specific genres, to create a truly original series. I assume SRD wanted to write an epic fantasy in a magical realm filled with exotic creatures and wizards. Right off the bat I suppose it sounds like Tolkien, but then again it's virtually impossible to read any epic fantasy adventure without comparing that work with the LOTR.

Danlo and Furls noted what influenced Tolkien. Tolkien took what he read and ran with it. Whether it was Beowulf, Lord Dunsany, Norse mythology, The Nibelungenlied, Wagner's Ring Cycle (also obvious influences in TCTC), Tolkien used these elements and crafted them to fit his very own epic series.

Just as Tolkien borrowed from those before him, SRD borrowed from Tolkien. He incorporated some Tolkien, some Wagner and some epic norms into his story. SRD manages to incorporate these elements from those before him without overshadowing his creation. It's quite an achievment to pay obvious homage to your influences, while creating characters that are something more than mere caracatures involved in a tired story of vanquishing the evil sorcerer in a land filled with dragons and wizards. SRD is a creative writer. I think he knew what he was doing when he included all fantastic elements (Tolkien, myths, epic journey) in his tale.
If all Tolkienish elements were removed and replaced with other non-familiar elements, TCTC would still be a terrific story. Replace the ring with a head band. Replace ur-viles with shadows. Whatever. In the end, it's the story that's important. I think it is an accomplishment to create a fantasy novel that pays tribute to the basic elements of Tolkien and Tolkiens predecessors, without relying upon them to tell a tale six books long.

Post by **Tulizar** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:13 am

Ugh. Thought I signed in. That last one was me.

Thu Dec 04, 2003 5:04 pm

Post by **[Syl]** » Fri Dec 05, 2003 9:34 pm

Copied is perhaps too harsh a word, but I don't think Donaldson himself would argue with maybe saying "traced."

I read somewhere, I believe (forgive me, I can't find the link, and I'm going off something I read about a year ago), that it was in college where Donaldson got the idea to write the Chronicles, or at least something like them. Anti-fantasy sentiment was in full swing at the time, and Tolkein was reaching one of his popularity peaks (which might explain part of the forementioned sentiment). Donaldson's idea was something along the lines that he could write a book incorporating the elements and themes of high fantasy, Tolkein in particular, as well as what was considered "good" writing at the time. Voila.

It's more than borrowing, or being influenced, even paying homage, though, of course, all are part of it. It was intentional similarity, though nobody would call it plagiarism.

Let's not let Zeph bring out the inner Fanboy in us. Did Shakespeare write the original Taming of the Shrew? Hardly, but he did it best.

Post by **UrLord** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 4:55 am

Well, there are a staggering number of similarities in the worlds of Middle Earth and the Land, but to me that has always been the least important part of The Cronicles...The characters themselves are what matters, regardless of their quest, heritage, race, etc. The characters in Donaldson's works are about as unique as any characters could possibly be, so it doesn't really matter if the Ranyhyn are identical to the special horses in Middle Earth, or if a quest revolving around a super-powerful ring is in both.

Post by **Tulizar** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 3:49 am

Syl wrote: Let's not let Zeph bring out the inner Fanboy in us. Did Shakespeare write the original Taming of the Shrew? Hardly, but he did it best.

Oh my, I guess I did come across as a raving looney fan, huh?

Post by **moleary** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 7:59 pm

There is a huge difference between "copying" and "being similiar".

Yup, what he said. Just because two authors may have similar elements does not make their stories the same. Some similarities are inevitable (as someone else said, considering the genres), especially when SRD was 'paying tribute' to Tolkein. But just because there are horses in both stories, and long lived people in both stories, and an eeeeevil dude in both stories, does not make them the same.

Let's see, how else can I say the same thing all over again...? hehe

-Michelle

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 1:50 pm

LOTR: There's a bad guy hanging out at the east end of the land.
TCTC: There's a bad guy hanging out at the east end of the land.

TCTC: There's a forestal.
LOTR: Tom Bombadil.

TCTC: Giant's have stories that last weeks in the telling.
LOTR: The Ents language requires a great deal of time to agree on a simple premise.

TCTC: The most power item in the story is a ring.
LOTR: The most power item in the story is a ring.

TCTC: Woodelven.
LOTR: Elves.

LOTR: Rohan adores horses.
TCTC: Ramen.

TCTC: Ranyhyn come at the beckon of a whistle as if they had ridden toward it long before.
LOTR: Gandalf's steed (duh).

TCTC: Revelstone.
LOTR: Helm's Deep.

All of these things are nothing but Archetypes. The are standard fair for the Fantasy type literature model and have been since Ancient times. That doesn't make them copies. Just because the Woodhelvinin live in trees doesn't make them elves. They are tall and lithe but they are not elves. They have many of the characteristics of elves but elves they are not. Elves existed in literature long before Tolkien came along. Quests, Elves, Dwarves, Trolls, Gnomes, Fairies, the Person of Ultimate Evil, and Talismans of Power are all Fantasy Archetypes. They existed long before Tolkien. TCTC is not a copy of LoTR, it is a disservice to both Tolkien and Donaldson to say so in my opinion. For to say that Donaldson copied tolkien then one would have to extend the arguement to include that Tolkien copied from other writers also since he used Archetypes that have existed since ancient times.

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

Lord Foul's Bane