The Unfettered - selfish or what...

[deer of the dawn]

I was moved by Wayfriend's thoughtful post, but in the end I have to say that while reading the books I had the same feeling as Alan. Now that I found out that he scrubs floors- something most males are somehow exempt from- I admire him even more, both for scrubbing floors and for standing on his own.

Yes it was all good and right and so on to let the Unfettered follow their own path. But no one exists in their own world, without responsibility on some level to the community. It just would have been nice for them to get up from their lotus positions and lend a more active part, seeing as their were "so many" of them.

[wayfriend]

Don't you think that "a private vision" has any merit? There's a little bit of magic going on with these guys. They're not just independent, they're not merely copping out --- they have come into contact with something, something that calls them, something that compels them to follow a path.

It's not amazing that they develop strange lores, like reading dreams or reading stones. Those lores called to them, sought them out. Occupied their minds to the exclusion of their normal duties and regular routines.

They wander into the unknown. They have a guide -- whatever calls them. No one else has this guide, no one else can go where they go. When they leave the Loresraat and leave the people and become reclusive, this is only a metaphor for what they really do, which is leave the known behind to travel alone into the unknown.

So, all other things aside, the Lords would be rather shortsighted indeed to prevent these people from following their private visions. Not just because they refuse to force service. Not just because they revere free and independent spirits. But because the recognize a rare opportunity when they see one. And it's of the take-it-or-leave-it variety, too.

[iQuestor]

OK, I dont think the argument that these guys contributed nothing to the common good has merit:

1. The unfettereded in Andelain gave his strenght and possibly his life fighting corruption at the rites of spring when TC and Atarian were present.

2. the unfettered woman in morrinmoss (?) gave TC her life in TPTP

3. It was an unfettered one who chose to help Saltheart and triock communicate with Revelstone in TPTP IIRC

The unfettered are spoken of with great respect by Mhoram and the lords. I think they did great good despite their reclusive ways.

[Relayer]

Agreed. And those were just specific events... they did much more. Think of it -- the Unfettered in Andelain had befriended the animals and Wraiths and perhaps lived among them for many years. This is partially why the animals were so willing to sacrifice themselves trying to stop the urviles.

IIRC, the Healer had been doing her work for many years too.

I think the biggest point here is that we cannot try to place our values and judgements, how we've learned to act in our society, on the people of the Land. It's a different world, and this is one of the things that makes it so wonderful to many of us.

[Unfettered One]

Also, I think we must clarify something else... Unfettered means "no constraints", not "isolated". Just because they sought a personal vision doesn't mean they had nothing to do with the other denizens of the land.

To be sure, some passed out of knowledge, but there were many instances (as described here) where they interacted with the Land's people.

[Linna Heartbooger]

Yes it was all good and right and so on to let the Unfettered follow their own path. But no one exists in their own world, without responsibility on some level to the community. It just would have been nice for them to get up from their lotus positions and lend a more active part, seeing as their were "so many" of them.

The thing is... I guess I saw them as "pursuing their own private vision" for "when the time came that it would be needed." In practice, having Unfettered in unexpected places really... helped. And yes, when they (all the Unfettered who we saw show up in the books) saw that they were needed, the stepped in so unquestioningly; that is why I regarded them highly from the first, though I am perpetually a little puzzled by them.

On the debate of the COST of unfettering people...

I agree with most of what you said, except the "little cost" part. I think the new Lords would have loved to have a few more of their number when their crisis came. If I recall, in TPTP Mohram says something like "It's too bad that so many lately have taken the rites of Unfettered".

Since they can't be good Lords or Lorewardens or Staff or Sword, the Lords lose nothing by freeing them.

...I'd say that it's not completely lucid what is meant by, "who find that they cannot work for the Land or the Lore of the Old Lords in the company of their fellows." I think it makes more sense to talk about "risk" than "cost."

I'd say that there was definitely risk in unfettering people. But I'd say that the risk was "practical risk." But there was also risk in not unfettering. And I'd say that risk is more like a "spiritual" risk. The practical risk is, "The total number of Lords/Loremasters we have is smaller." The "spiritual" risk is that anyone should serve unwillingly or discontentedly, and that some new good thing (lore or wisdom) would be missed out on. And in the Land, which accounts for more, the "practical considerations," or the sorta "moral/spiritual considerations"?

(The best analogy I can think of is when Jesus tells someone to give up <certain thing, usually money>. The "practical risk" is that the person won't have the benefit of that thing, say some money, for his/her use. But the "spiritual risk" of _keeping_ said thing is that the person will get so attached to it that he/she dreads losing it, wants it more than God, loves it more than people.)

Does that make sense to anyone else?

Also, it would be awesome if someone post pieces of the passage where an Unfettered One came to Glimmermere to speak with Covenant ...I'm sure there's support for the idea that the Unfettered Ones were a part of the community even though it was like a "long distance relationship." Didn't Elena or some Lord seek to get this Unfettered to speak to Covenant?

[kevinswatch]

Graduate students aren't selfish...

-jay

[matrixman]

*Matrixman*

I'll grant you a little light-hearted - I try not to take these things too seriously!

And I apologize - sometimes I do take things too seriously, especially when it concerns the Chronicles. You have the right to question the Unfettered, of course. Basically what rubbed me the wrong way was how you phrased your comments about the Unfettered - and again, that could just be me, because I love the Unfettered and am protective of them. I probably would've been more willing to offer my own thoughts on the Unfettered if your initial post had been phrased in a less dismissive manner, shall we say. Then again, you have the right to speak your mind. I think we understand each other's position better now. In any case, others here have been more eloquent at making the case for the Unfettered than any defense I could've mounted. matrixman out.

[emotional leper]

Graduate students aren't selfish...

-jay

If they're working for grant money instead of for free, then yes, they are.

[Linna Heartbooger]

And I apologize - sometimes I do take things too seriously, especially when it concerns the Chronicles...

Well, good. That will mean I'm not the only one. After getting seriously worked-up and irritated in a discussion about Linden awhile back, I determined that I would need to repress some of my serious side (at least w/ regards to reacting to others) if I wanted to stick around the Watch. (Though if I still get annoyed sometimes when serious threads drift off into oblivion and nonsense...)

[Wyldewode]

What? Threads are drifting into nonsense?

I know that thread drift can be annoying, but it can be awfully easy to get off topic. I do it in my own conversations, so I can't say I'm without blame. But when a thread is really serious I do try to keep on task.

So back to topic. . . I think the Unfettered are an integral part of the land, and if anything they're among the least selfish of any characters.

[Alan]

OK - thanks Guys - you've given me a lot to think about!

But - sorry...

When TC first arrived in The Land he was given what was essentially a Declaration of War. Ravers were again seen in the Land (Soaring Woodhelvin - "We have begun relearning the defense of the Land") and certain of the unfettered were aware of the White Gold.

Yes I'll grant that the pusuit of a private vision can be a great and noble thing but it still seems far too expensive to me. Not at the expense of the Lords - some have suggested that I think that the Lords should not have "let them go" - this is not the case. Unfettered does not mean "without responsibility" - it means, quite literally, "without chains".

And, yes, when asked upon they gave their all without question. My question was, and is, where were they and all their incredibly useful lore when they were needed? When the Council of Lords were so desperate for help that they Summoned TC back to the Land, despite the cost of Atairan and the disaster of Troy? When, bear in mind, the White Gold would "Save or Damn".

Is there any point to devoting your life to something and doing nothing when it is threatened?

*Matrixman* - Thanks.
*Dawn* - doubly so - I was starting to worry there...

[SGuilfoyle1966]

Your question is easily answered.
Where were they in the Land's time of need?
The guy who studied animals and the Wraiths was in Andelain just in time to save Covenant's life.
The guy who studied dreams was at Glimmermere, and was able to give Covenant some major insight, though he didn't know it. Part of which was passed on to Mhoram, because he did ask why the Lords were so hot for Kevin's Lore when he got back from Glimmermere.
The old healer was in Morinmoss when Covenant needed her.
The old nut job saved Triock's life, I think, even though Triock was taken. But even if you discount the last, there are three whose private visions put them in vital places in order to save the Land's future. Just the exact right place at the right time, I'd say.

[Blackhawk]

I agree that the Unfettered were better off finding their own way...after all can you imagine being drafted in the Land? they passed all of the tests the the loresraat put in place to qualify a "Lord" ..they would have been better off letting the ones who failed their Lordship have their own staff during war time, apparently there was alot more failing than gaining Lordship or Unfettering..they would have been much more usefull than a commander that was only able to wield a sword, anyway the only unfettered that i can recall having any true power that could have been used against Foul's Army would be the one who saved Atiaran and Covenant, he had the animals on his side..he was sort of the beastmaster, and even he could'nt defeat a single wedge of Urviles,(easier said than done?)
...anyway..the price the woman who healed covenant paid was extreme..she died from that one exertion(However Necessary)..and the stone reader..well that would have taken time they didnt have even if he had been willing..and the Glimmermere dreamreader would not have been much help aside from watching one of the lords children..... was it loeryas kids? ..and dream interpretation....there were no mentioned unfettered that had followed the defensive or war lore...outside the Council of Lords that is..... Mhoram & TC had been to see the Unfettered of Glimmermere so actually each of the Unfettered truly did serve their purpose in the story,...without them TC would have died at least 2 times, this may be beating a dead horse but im a new member, havent had time to read all the posts.

[/url]

[Menolly]

Be welcome to the Watch, Blackhawk.
Be Well Come and True.

[Blackhawk]

Thanks for the welcome Menolly....
You would think i was born between or something..long as it took me to become a member, say true i didnt know you could actually become a member untill recently. I'm looking forward to checking out some of these discussions, also you have a great story to go with your name...I love the Entire dragonrider series.

[Alan]

Aye - Welcome Blackhawk.

Thanks for joining in - even if only to help kick my poor bleeding carcass...

[Holsety]

Aye - thanks guys but I remain unconvinced. At the time of TC's appearance in the Land the Council of Lords was at a very weak point. The damage from the Ritual of Desecration was such that even by the time of the second Chrons it was still apparent.

These guys went through the process of Sword and Staff only to cry off at the last moment.

I fail to see how the private vision - however laudable - can in these circs. be valid.

All I can say is that Mhoram believed in "private vision." He did not condemn Covenant for saving one girl over the whole land. It certainly brought him a great deal of despair but he never blamed Covenant for making such a decision because both sides of the equation were too valuable to be measured. The unfettered we see in the series during a time of crisis - the healer and the one who cared for the last few wraiths of andelian - were both undertaking valuable causes. That's really all that needs to be said. You can't blame a hero for not being a superhero IMO (if that makes any sense, what I mean is that the unfettered were valuable).

Basically whenever Mhoram is like "ya that's ok by me unbeliever" about covenant I'm like "hmm well ya maybe ok...jesus mhoram you're too nice but I can't say no to you."

3. It was an unfettered one who chose to help Saltheart and triock communicate with Revelstone in TPTP IIRC

In this case it was the "public vision" which destroyed the private vision btw. I am under the impression the Unfettered didn't even succeed because of the raver's interruption. Saltheart wasn't there at the time.

I'd say that there was definitely risk in unfettering people. But I'd say that the risk was "practical risk." But there was also risk in not unfettering. And I'd say that risk is more like a "spiritual" risk. The practical risk is, "The total number of Lords/Loremasters we have is smaller." The "spiritual" risk is that anyone should serve unwillingly or discontentedly, and that some new good thing (lore or wisdom) would be missed out on. And in the Land, which accounts for more, the "practical considerations," or the sorta "moral/spiritual considerations"?

-You are talking about opportunity cost not risk. Or so it seems to me. If I go to college instead of working, the wages I don't earn in the kind of job I could get right now are the "opportunity cost" of college. Similarly the difference between the "productivity" of a person as a lord versus a person as an unfettered would be the "opportunity cost" of making one of those choices. OMG why am I even nitpicking about this? The point was perfectly fine as it is!
-If the people who become unfettered were "not allowed" to become lords, does that mean they would still become lords? Perhaps they wouldn't go to the lore school (whatever it's called) at all. Perhaps they would leave whether they were allowed to or not - how are the lords going to forcibly compel service? Whip AWOL lords?
-Obviously the moral and spiritual considerations are more important to the people of the land. That's why the oath of peace is there. Even when mhoram finds a new way in TPTP, it isn't so much a "we need to get rid of the oath of peace because it is impractical" as it is a "here is a truer way of doing things."

I will conclude with a sorta general statement which I will not back up. The Land is not set up to be defended. W/ the exception of Hile Troy the Land was not about some sort of big government system forging the entire area into a well honed blade ready to take out Foul's army.

And to some extent that's why it's worth defending. Mhoram as I see him loves serving the land and comforting the people of the land more than anything but he is strained almost to the breaking point. Other lords DO "break," like the guy who dies defending Soaring Woodhelven when Mhoram wants him to come back to Revelstone (he was constantly questioning whether he was worthy of his wife). Imagine what would happen if you had a lord who hated his/her job from the start who got nudged into doing it for "the good" of the land. I could easily see someone cracking under despair like Lena's dad and doing terrible damage.

[Alan]

OK - I think I may have to print that out and study it before I can even start to think about a reply.

But I have a question.

If the politics of the USA are an acceptable part of this Forum then I will, regretfully, have to say my goodbyes. I mean no offense by this and certainly "do not mean to traffic in words on this matter"

We are, worldwide, discussing a Fantasy World written by an author of fiction.

(Unless, of course you want to discuss todays' Prime Ministers Question Time - it was rather a good one)

[[Syl]]

Anything (within reason) is fair game as long as it relates. Strictly political stuff gets moved to the Tank.