Considering all the thousands of years of suffering and atrocities depicted in the books, and the apparent doom of repeating the cycle whenever Foul returns to strength, why doesn't the Creator break the Arch of Time, whup the ole' Despiser's butt, and start anew with a hopefully less flawed product?
I suppose the same question might be posed to many modern religions, but their answer might not be so easy ....
You couldn't make an interesting 10 book series out of it then.
Why doesn't "The Creator" hit the reset button?
Moderators: kevinswatch, Orlion
-
High Lord Tolkien
- Excommunicated Member of THOOLAH
- Posts: 7384
- Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 2:40 am
- Location: Cape Cod, Mass
- Been thanked: 3 times
- Contact:
It's mentioned a few times in the books.
Plus your way makes for a boring quick story.
Plus your way makes for a boring quick story.
https://thoolah.blogspot.com/
[Defeated by a gizmo from Batman's utility belt]
Joker: I swear by all that's funny never to be taken in by that unconstitutional device again!
[Defeated by a gizmo from Batman's utility belt]
Joker: I swear by all that's funny never to be taken in by that unconstitutional device again!
Groovy...yeah, I think you answered your own question! 
My understanding is that one of the reasons - maybe the ultimate reason - why SRD is writing the Last Chronicles is to bring about an end to that repeating cycle with Foul.
Other than that, I go with the standard answer that the Creator has refrained from breaking the Arch because he respects the autonomy of his creation. He would prefer that his creation be "healed" from within instead of him just hitting the reset button - which, admittedly, he could've done with very little cost to himself. Unless the being we know as Lord Foul could truly harm the Creator once freed from his mortal prison. And that, I think, remains an open question, because we still really don't know much about Foul.
And again, with the Last Chronicles, maybe the Creator is finally fed up and getting ready to hit the cosmic reset button. But then that would negate Covenant's and Linden's existence, eh?
My understanding is that one of the reasons - maybe the ultimate reason - why SRD is writing the Last Chronicles is to bring about an end to that repeating cycle with Foul.
Other than that, I go with the standard answer that the Creator has refrained from breaking the Arch because he respects the autonomy of his creation. He would prefer that his creation be "healed" from within instead of him just hitting the reset button - which, admittedly, he could've done with very little cost to himself. Unless the being we know as Lord Foul could truly harm the Creator once freed from his mortal prison. And that, I think, remains an open question, because we still really don't know much about Foul.
And again, with the Last Chronicles, maybe the Creator is finally fed up and getting ready to hit the cosmic reset button. But then that would negate Covenant's and Linden's existence, eh?
Can you imagine how much it would take to create a working world? say you created this priceless painting...and then you noticed this little flaw in the middle..that kept getting bigger and trying to ruin the extensive time and the beauty you had created with it..and you knew as much as you tried you would never be able to duplicate that beauty exactly if it were destroyed.. something would always be different.... the creator may have taken it as lightly as someone destroying one of his/her works of art..possibly a work of art that once destroyed will corrode his/her other works..so rather than risk the one piece of art with the flaw unleashing other flaws in every creation in his/her gallery, he/she took time that was available..after all..he/she was about done creating for the moment...now he/she was possibly just enjoying his/her art and decided to spray some TC on the offending piece to preserve it and protect the rest.
-
Bran Pendragon
- <i>Elohim</i>
- Posts: 100
- Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:43 pm
- Location: Ridin the skurj baby... riding the skurj
-
Holsety
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 3439
- Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 8:56 pm
- Location: Principality of Sealand
- Been thanked: 1 time
Asking this question is to me literally asking "why bother" in the first place. To some extent my only answer can be "because." But...here's some other thoughts.
He treasures his creation. He treasures the people living there. The Creator is NOT just some painter creating a masterpiece. This world is already everything. He can't make up for failing one universe by making another. He will still have destroyed/abandoned all the lives that came into existence because of him.
You are fated to die one day. Does that mean you should just shoot yourself in the head today because it's gonna happen sooner or later? Moreover it seems like the Land's history has probably been more happy than sad...most of the new lord's time was good, a fair amount of time between the 1st and 2nd was without sunbane, and while the time between 2nd and 3rd may have kevin's dirt and stuff it doesn't seem like stave was entirely without happiness or something. Even if I agreed that life should just end if it's going to be more sad than happy, I don't know that the Land is necessarily this way.
I mean, what? Is he gonna pick up a universal loudspeaker and just say "Uhh...hey guys. It's been really fun watching you and all, lots of fun times were had, but that Foul prick is a complete jerk and there are all these other nasty chumps popping up all over the place . And then, just yesterday, I realized I was becoming a member of THOOLAH...
"You know what I'm just gonna call it quits! Hope you had a nice existence, but that's all for you. Oh come on don't cry you wusses, I'm sure the next creation will be a lot better than you pricks."
The Land's situation isn't hopeless, and the creator isn't the one who should make the decision of whether it should exist or not in any case, since it seems natural to assume that the flaw (foul) was in some way his responsibility, or something he could not avoid.
Really, this question was (kind of) already asked in the books, on a lesser scale. Was the ritual of desecration good or bad?
Finally, destroying his creation may simply be antithetical to his existence, though we really don't know much about the creator.
Generally, we have to wonder how much of the story of creation and the little facts etc we actually know - stuff like the worm at world's end, which is at least capable of breaking the arch if it goes against the power of the ring, is somewhat confusing, in terms of figuring out how it works into the creator's world. (did he create it? why? why does this hunger exist that is more powerful than even foul?) We don't really know WHY Foul exists. Why, even though he was supposedly the "source of all evil," the original flaw, there are obviously other things wrong with the world (Kastenassen and the skurj for instance). ALl that being considered, the Creator is not guaranteed success next time. It seems very probable that a being like Foul would be inherent in any of the Creator's creations. A simple manicheistic necessity?
I don't think we really know whether the creator is supposed to be all-powerful. Certainly wouldn't be out of pattern for him to be all-powerful perfect being who makes a mistake...paradox, but why would that stop him!?
He treasures his creation. He treasures the people living there. The Creator is NOT just some painter creating a masterpiece. This world is already everything. He can't make up for failing one universe by making another. He will still have destroyed/abandoned all the lives that came into existence because of him.
You are fated to die one day. Does that mean you should just shoot yourself in the head today because it's gonna happen sooner or later? Moreover it seems like the Land's history has probably been more happy than sad...most of the new lord's time was good, a fair amount of time between the 1st and 2nd was without sunbane, and while the time between 2nd and 3rd may have kevin's dirt and stuff it doesn't seem like stave was entirely without happiness or something. Even if I agreed that life should just end if it's going to be more sad than happy, I don't know that the Land is necessarily this way.
I mean, what? Is he gonna pick up a universal loudspeaker and just say "Uhh...hey guys. It's been really fun watching you and all, lots of fun times were had, but that Foul prick is a complete jerk and there are all these other nasty chumps popping up all over the place . And then, just yesterday, I realized I was becoming a member of THOOLAH...
"You know what I'm just gonna call it quits! Hope you had a nice existence, but that's all for you. Oh come on don't cry you wusses, I'm sure the next creation will be a lot better than you pricks."
The Land's situation isn't hopeless, and the creator isn't the one who should make the decision of whether it should exist or not in any case, since it seems natural to assume that the flaw (foul) was in some way his responsibility, or something he could not avoid.
Really, this question was (kind of) already asked in the books, on a lesser scale. Was the ritual of desecration good or bad?
Finally, destroying his creation may simply be antithetical to his existence, though we really don't know much about the creator.
Generally, we have to wonder how much of the story of creation and the little facts etc we actually know - stuff like the worm at world's end, which is at least capable of breaking the arch if it goes against the power of the ring, is somewhat confusing, in terms of figuring out how it works into the creator's world. (did he create it? why? why does this hunger exist that is more powerful than even foul?) We don't really know WHY Foul exists. Why, even though he was supposedly the "source of all evil," the original flaw, there are obviously other things wrong with the world (Kastenassen and the skurj for instance). ALl that being considered, the Creator is not guaranteed success next time. It seems very probable that a being like Foul would be inherent in any of the Creator's creations. A simple manicheistic necessity?
I don't think we really know whether the creator is supposed to be all-powerful. Certainly wouldn't be out of pattern for him to be all-powerful perfect being who makes a mistake...paradox, but why would that stop him!?
-
amanibhavam
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 1497
- Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2002 9:54 am
- Location: United Kingdom
- Contact:
Spoiler
... because it would be boring to have yet another world/mythology with an inevitable Doomsday coming, be it Ragnarök-fashion or Ilúvatar-style. Here at least we only suspect that the world is going to be destroyed in the process of getting rid /incorporating/whatever of LF, but how that is going to happen and to what end, we do not.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
love is the shadow that ripens the wine
Languages of Middle-Earth community on Google Plus
Pink Floyd community on Google Plus
love is the shadow that ripens the wine
Languages of Middle-Earth community on Google Plus
Pink Floyd community on Google Plus
-
Holsety
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 3439
- Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 8:56 pm
- Location: Principality of Sealand
- Been thanked: 1 time
amanibhavam wrote:Spoiler
... because it would be boring to have yet another world/mythology with an inevitable Doomsday coming, be it Ragnarök-fashion or Ilúvatar-style. Here at least we only suspect that the world is going to be destroyed in the process of getting rid /incorporating/whatever of LF, but how that is going to happen and to what end, we do not.
Spoiler
Why assume we will get rid of LF permanently? 
How about...
The Creator - in the act of and after the fact of Creation becomes irrelevant.
The Creation becomes relevant.
Otherwise what's the point? I can put a drop of honey outside my window to see what will happen, but, once I've done so and have seen what happens well ...
Not so easy to stop the process then.
I can wipe up the honey - but there is little that I can do to wipe up the repercussions of the honey.
The Creator - in the act of and after the fact of Creation becomes irrelevant.
The Creation becomes relevant.
Otherwise what's the point? I can put a drop of honey outside my window to see what will happen, but, once I've done so and have seen what happens well ...
Not so easy to stop the process then.
I can wipe up the honey - but there is little that I can do to wipe up the repercussions of the honey.
Down under where the lights are low...
Great post, Holsety. It will be impossible for SRD to satisfy everyone's theories or hopes for the Last Chronicles: some say it must be inevitable that the Land and the Earth should end, as the cost of final victory over Foul. I would prefer if the Land did not have to come to an end, but I'm here to follow the story wherever SRD wishes to lead it.
Note: even though we're not supposed to be talking about the Last Chronicles in the 1st and 2nd Chronicles forum, I think at this point it's very hard to avoid the subject, given how we're now halfway through the Last and how everything ties together. As long as we're very careful to avoid specifics, hopefully the Mods won't mind. But if they do, it's no skin off my back (shrugs).
Note: even though we're not supposed to be talking about the Last Chronicles in the 1st and 2nd Chronicles forum, I think at this point it's very hard to avoid the subject, given how we're now halfway through the Last and how everything ties together. As long as we're very careful to avoid specifics, hopefully the Mods won't mind. But if they do, it's no skin off my back (shrugs).
-
[Syl]
- Unfettered One
- Posts: 13020
- Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2002 12:36 am
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 1 time
Don't worry; I'm keeping an eye out.
"It is not the literal past that rules us, save, possibly, in a biological sense. It is images of the past. Each new historical era mirrors itself in the picture and active mythology of its past or of a past borrowed from other cultures. It tests its sense of identity, of regress or new achievement against that past.”
-George Steiner
-George Steiner
-
Holsety
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 3439
- Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 8:56 pm
- Location: Principality of Sealand
- Been thanked: 1 time
We do see the creator trying to influence "champions" like Covenant and Linden through the real world. This indicates that his ability to effect change is limited. I believe they do say the creator could stop foul if he was willing to break the arch of time to do it. Though the fact that foul seems to be ok with the possibility of breaking the arch and not getting covenants ring (he would be happy if cov broke the arch on his own) says that maybe it isn't certain the creator could definitely beat foul.Alan wrote:How about...
The Creator - in the act of and after the fact of Creation becomes irrelevant.
The Creation becomes relevant.
Otherwise what's the point? I can put a drop of honey outside my window to see what will happen, but, once I've done so and have seen what happens well ...
Not so easy to stop the process then.
I can wipe up the honey - but there is little that I can do to wipe up the repercussions of the honey.
Though maybe it's just that foul would be happy destroying the creator's creation utterly even if he himself didn't survive?
Foul certainly thinks he's capable of beating the Creator. <Runes reference withheld>
As to the bigger picture, it seems to me to be similar to how a parent feels about their child, especially as they grow up. No parent I know would hit the Reset button as is suggested the Creator should. They can try to influence the child, tell them to clean up their rooms, don't date the bad boys, do go to college, etc... but it's the child's existence and soul at that point. They're going to follow whatever path they choose.
As to the bigger picture, it seems to me to be similar to how a parent feels about their child, especially as they grow up. No parent I know would hit the Reset button as is suggested the Creator should. They can try to influence the child, tell them to clean up their rooms, don't date the bad boys, do go to college, etc... but it's the child's existence and soul at that point. They're going to follow whatever path they choose.
"History is a myth men have agreed upon." - Napoleon
Aye - lots of good stuff.
This thread has become a little theistic.
The Creator Made the World which contains The Land.
Lord Foul went behind His back and made Bad Things in His creation.
But The Creator Made the World...
We've had a couple thousand years to sort this one out...
This thread has become a little theistic.
The Creator Made the World which contains The Land.
Lord Foul went behind His back and made Bad Things in His creation.
But The Creator Made the World...
We've had a couple thousand years to sort this one out...
Down under where the lights are low...
Yeah, and we see how our diverse societies have ironed this out to the satisfaction of all...Alan wrote: We've had a couple thousand years to sort this one out...
Actually, I wasn't expecting a conclusive answer here, more an angels dancing on the head of a pin type question. I reread the first 2 chronicles last year for the first time in a while, but have had the willpower to delay reading the new ones until they are complete. I'm buying them as they come out, to give my support, but dang if I can keep the temptation at bay for another 5 years or so.
I just remember how painful it was waiting for the science fiction/fantasy bookclub hardback of TOT and WGW to arrive on my doorstep.
-
Bran Pendragon
- <i>Elohim</i>
- Posts: 100
- Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:43 pm
- Location: Ridin the skurj baby... riding the skurj
-
Holsety
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 3439
- Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 8:56 pm
- Location: Principality of Sealand
- Been thanked: 1 time
I actually like this. On the one side it's hard to imagine a creator god person being unable to maintain enough control over his creation to undo it. I don't get the feeling from TPTP that he would want to anyways. BUT this would explain how exactly the worm stuff fits into the creator/foul stuff.drew wrote:How about, because his reset button is the Worm of the Worlds end...and he gav the Elohim too much power and arogance, and they're making sure he DOESN'T reset the whole thing.