Staff of Law (spoiler)

[Mr. Broken]

My question is this, are the new Staff of Law, and the old Staff of Law, one in the same? We know that Linden made the new staff, we know now that time has been tampered with, and that certain individuals can move within it at will. Heres a theory perhaps a certain insequent is successful in winning the staff from Linden, and is then in turn defeated by the Theomach who bestows the staff upon Berek, and then adjusts the situation to fit known history thus preserving time.

[sweetbread]

I personally think that Berek will obtain Linden's staff. I'm convinced that they ARE in fact, one and the same. When Linden first went back in time with Roger, and she decided to goto Berek's camp, I though that FOR SURE that was the reason why...

...apparently, Donaldson decided to thwart the predictability of the situation by making it not so, and by weaving the story of Theo, the Guardian, and the One Tree.

I still think, that it WILL be so, in the end, and that the entire story about the One Tree was the way that Theo justifies the acquisition of the Staff....


And it makes sense too; the Staff of Law was carved with the lore of the Laws of Life and Death; once Elena broke the Law of Death, she was then able to wield the Staff for the Despiser -- had that Law not been broken, the Lore on the staff would have prevented it from being wielded thus...

[Sill]

Many have wondered the very same thing. My hunch is they aren't only because it was said that Berek himself made the staff. But I can easily se that being a cover story too. We'll probably have to wait until the last book to find out. Thats, what, only 5 or so years from now?

[Ur Dead]

In TOT, Covenant saids he is going to take a branch. A branch that looks like it had a section cutoff of it previously.

So this may be the proof that Linden's Staff and the Original were two seperate Staves.

If Berek did get Linden's Staff, who or what created the metal ends?

[wayfriend]

So this may be the proof that Linden's Staff and the Original were two seperate Staves.

My thought exactly. We know Berek came to the One Tree, passed the Guardian, and lopped off a branch.

What purposes is served in the story by having Berek mysteriously do all that and not create a Staff? What purpose is served by having the new Staff become the old Staff?

If Berek did get Linden's Staff, who or what created the metal ends?

Ah, it's quite possible with time travel to create loops as well as paradoxes. Such as objects that are never created, but which come from their own future.

I'm not sure as Donaldson would allow this to happen. There's always an "original" series of events which are laid down without any interference from the future. So there has to be a point in which the heels are created.

However, let me remind everyone that in order for Linden's staff to be the first Staff, then there has to be an original timeline in which Berek had no Staff at all, until someone went back in time to change events and give Berek Linden's Staff.

Such a historical change would surely destroy the Arch of Time, however. Changing the history of the Old Lords and the New Lords from one where there was no Staff of Law (and hence no recovery by Drool, no summoning of Covenant) to one where there was, is a huuuuuuge change.

[MsMary]

So this may be the proof that Linden's Staff and the Original were two seperate Staves.

My thought exactly. We know Berek came to the One Tree, passed the Guardian, and lopped off a branch.

What purposes is served in the story by having Berek mysteriously do all that and not create a Staff? What purpose is served by having the new Staff become the old Staff?

I agree. But it's an interesting theory.

[Mr. Broken]

The only reason I asked the question is because we have been provided with more specific information on Lindens staff, than Berek's, and since the manipulation of time and history appear to be theme of the Last Chronicles, I chose to speculate on the subject which is what I come here for. Well that and because I know that if I were to write "tis the moon", Wayfriends reply would be "no tis the sun".

[Unfettered One]

I'll chime in here...

The New SOL was blackened by LA's battle with Roger and the croyel. So far as we know, the old SOL was wood colored (or coloured, depending on your location), at least when we see it in LFB, TIL, and TPTP. So it's doubtful they're the same staff, unless it's going to get another overhaul a la Forrestal.

Also, I see another problem with them being one staff... logistically.

The new SOL was created using the heels of the old SOL, so if they are the same, then these heels were never created. It's kind of like inventing a car with tires that you got from an old car, but the old car got it's tries from the new car after it went back in time.

Ok, bad analogy... I've got a headache now. Am I making any sense?

[Mr. Broken]

Ok I'll buy the argument about the old heels.

[wayfriend]

Am I making any sense?

That makes sense to me. That's what I meant by "loops" where objects are never created.

[Unfettered One]

Am I making any sense?

That makes sense to me. That's what I meant by "loops" where objects are never created.

You know, I totally missed that line when I read your post the first time. I guess I should read this site when I'm not constantly looking to see if the boss is behind me.

[sweetbread]

The metal heels of the staff are the "manacles" that the ur-viles are carrying. Hence, the reason that Vain was so attracted to them in the Aumbry (sp?)...

As far as the "loops" created by Linden's time traveling, well, you have to remember, that in FR, Linden has already done things that were supposed to happen, such as her interaction with the Viles & Caer Caveral, the splitting of Melenkurion Skyweir, and her interactions among Berek's camp (justified as being the Unfettered One). Those are loops in time just as much as passing the staff off to Berek....

As for the "previously cut" branch of the One Tree.... I think Jeremiah might use that piece of wood to create his "trap" for the Elohim, since they are going to interfere with Linden/Covenant's plans. That could ultimately be the reason that Kenaustin had to go to the Isle of the One Tree and become it's guardian in the first place, to obtain the wood of the One Tree for Jeremiah's trap, not Berek's staff.....

[SGuilfoyle1966]

I personally think that Berek will obtain Linden's staff. I'm convinced that they ARE in fact, one and the same. When Linden first went back in time with Roger, and she decided to goto Berek's camp, I though that FOR SURE that was the reason why...

...apparently, Donaldson decided to thwart the predictability of the situation by making it not so, and by weaving the story of Theo, the Guardian, and the One Tree.

I still think, that it WILL be so, in the end, and that the entire story about the One Tree was the way that Theo justifies the acquisition of the Staff....


And it makes sense too; the Staff of Law was carved with the lore of the Laws of Life and Death; once Elena broke the Law of Death, she was then able to wield the Staff for the Despiser -- had that Law not been broken, the Lore on the staff would have prevented it from being wielded thus...

The staff is carved with runes. There's no mention in the books of what lore those runes signified. None at all.

The Staff is apposite to Foul. In one book it is called a tool not fit for his hand, resisting him at all turns.

The Staff is the apposite of FOUL. Not evil. Drool could put it to evil use.

He had Drool find it and uncover it and bring Covenant to the Land. then he got Elena to bring it to him later.

Addendum. I also don't like the idea that the Staffs are the same. (Staves?)

That would mean Linden's staff is already destroyed.

[Ur Dead]

The question of the "manacles" are still in question. They could be a device to bind Longwrath from attacking Linden. (Since Longwrath can slip from ordinary bonds and the ur viles are there to protect Linden)

Or they can be something else.

I would think that the metal heels of the staff would be more of "binding" than "manacles"

[sweetbread]

The staff is carved with runes. There's no mention in the books of what lore those runes signified. None at all.

Actually, there is:

Now instinctively she understood the runes with which Caerroil Wildwood had elaborated her staff. They were for this. The Forestal of Garroting Deep had engraved the ebony wood with his knowledge of Life and Death. Indirectly he had given her a supernal relationship with Law.

Now, mind you, that this is LINDEN'S Staff, not Berek's. Now, assuming that they are one and the same, then.....

[Ur Dead]

It sets up a paradox. How can you have a staff that was destroyed before it was made with metal endcaps or bands that were aquired from a destroyed staff that will be made?

Its' possible for the staff to do the traverse of time and be destroyed before it was created. But the metal bands at each end were aquired from the previous staff. There lays the paradox, the metal bands or caps that adorn the staff. It would have to be made from nothing by nobody.

The only way is if the bands were removed and destoyed and new bands were placed on the staff by Berek. Then no paradox will exist. Each part has a start and a end.

[SGuilfoyle1966]

I like the time aspect of the new trilogy. I have no problems with that at all.
But if we end up getting Star Trekkian "temporal causality loops" and such, I will be very disappointed. It's too cheap a device for SRD.

The only possibility that I see of a significant change to the nature of the staff might be acknowledging that, like Thomas Covenant IS the white gold, and as such has an inextricable link to the Land and the Earth, what justifies Linden being so strongly bound as well.

This staff, we are told again and again, is HERS.

Her jeans are already inscribed with some inscrutable runes. The use of the staff under Melenkurion Skyweir changed her, did it not?

This quote, from above, points out I wasn't clear. There is no mention in the books, i.e., the first two trilogies, what lore is inscribed on Berek's Staff.

Fatal Revenant p.588 wrote:

Now instinctively she understood the runes with which Caerroil Wildwood had elaborated her staff. They were for this. The Forestal of Garroting Deep had engraved the ebony wood with his knowledge of Life and Death. Indirectly he had given her a supernal relationship with Law.

we have a lot of talk about the Elohim getting trapped and bound up. Linden was given a relationship with the Law. Remember what happened to the first staff? It was a representation of the law, so powerful that in the end, it almost became the thing it represented?

Elena broke one law, but the staff's destruction weakened the Law so much the Sunbane became possible?

I know there's this club of Linden haters out there, so I'm treading lightly here. But what if Linden is becoming the Law itself.

[Mr. Broken]

Maybe something may be nothing, but is anyone else starting to see a connection form between Linden and Elena. Both weilders of the staff. Both permanently damaged by their fathers. Both capable of desecration and breaking of the laws. "You are being forged...", " I do not forgive.", hell even if Im wrong I can entertain myself with this for 2 more years.

[Relayer]

Also, remember the horserite, where the Ranyhyn compared Linden to Elena...

This staff, we are told again and again, is HERS.

I agree, but this is Linden thinking these thoughts. SHE feels that it's hers, but that might not be the reality of the situation. Especially because of the possessiveness of it.

[Mr. Broken]

... once a Law is broken , can it be broken again or is the damage already done?