Caer-Caveral's Last Act

[wayfriend]

[ I thought of this in another thread, but it seemed better as it's own topic.]

I find that I am thinking about Caer-Caveral all over again. Specifically, he broke the Law of Life, and I'm wondering why.

We all assume it was necessary. Necessary for Covenant to succeed against Lord Foul. And I don't doubt that: Caer-Caveral was far-seeing.

Furthermore, I have assumed that resurrecting Hollian and Anele was not the ultimate purpose. They were used to break the Law. But they were not the reason for wanting it broken. I just don't think that they were important enough to break the Law over, as important as they are.

I had always somehow thought that this act allowed Covenant to beat Foul, the way he did, at the end. That Covenant could not have come back from the Dead and interceded for the Arch unless that Law had been broken.

Covenant says as much.

"Caer-Caveral made it possible. Hile Troy." An old longing suffused his tone. "That was the 'necessity' he talked about. Why he had to give his life. It was the only way to open that particular door. So that Hollian could be brought back. And so that I wouldn't be like the rest of the Dead — unable to act. He broke the Law that would've kept me from opposing Foul. Otherwise I would've been just a spectator."

But . . .

But something is not quite right here.

At the end of Fatal Revenant, Linden resurrects Covenant.

Now I am confused. If Covenant came back from the dead to defeat Foul, then he's already resurrected, has been since WGW. It doesn't make sense to resurrect him again.

But if he wasn't resurrected when he defeated Foul ... if he was still Dead with a big D ... then I don't see why the Law of Life needed to be broken.

Earlier, Covenant said

"I don't have your hands — can't touch that kind of power anymore. I'm not physically alive. And I can be dismissed. I'm like the Dead. They can be invoked — and they can be sent away."

That doesn't sound like he was resurrected. Not in the way Hollian was resurrected in Andelain. In fact, he sounds as Dead as he could be.

Furthermore, we have seen Dead Kevin destroy Elena, we have seen Dead Elena weild the Staff of Law, we have seen dead zombies piling up before the gates of Revelstone. The Dead were never "unable to act" as far as I can tell.

How can one make sense of all of this?

Now I am starting to wonder if Caer-Caveral wasn't thinking REALLY far ahead when he broke the Law of Life. Is it possible that he broke the Law of Life so that, 3,500 years later, Linden could resurrect Covenant in Andelain at the end of Fatal Revenant?

For it is now, finally, that Covenant is truly resurrected, in the way that Hollian was resurrected. It seems to finally be what Caer-Caveral promised could be done.

We have one other clue. We know that Caerroil Wildwood supported that end. He placed the runes on Linden's new Staff of Law so that she could accomplish this very thing. And Caer-Caveral was Wildwood's acolyte. It could be that Wildwood's plan for Covenant's resurrection could have included preparing Hile Troy so that one day he could break the Law of Life and open the door?

And if Anele is as important as we all feel he is, then it's a plan that pulls a lot of things together. The Law of Life might have been broken 3,500 years before it was needed for Covenant, because Anele needed resurrecting at that time. Anele may not be the reason the Law was broken - but if it was to be broken, it makes perfect sense to use that chance to bring back someone who is really needed.

The only thing that mars this whole theory is Covenant's remarks quoted above, that his defeat of Foul at the end of WGW required the Law of Life to be broken. That he could not have acted being Dead otherwise.

Consider if Covenant had not said that. Then Caer-Caveral's last act would have made no sense with respect to the Second Chronicles.

I think Donaldson needed it to make sense, in case his Chronicles ended there. And so he decided to make it seem necessary for the ending. But this would have been a secondary consideration, an adjustment that needed to be made at the time, something not driven by the real core of the story. I would go so far as to say that the breaking of the Law of Life could have been omitted from WGW, and the ending would have worked out just as well. No one would have questioned Covenant's ability to act while he was dead.

So we have this. In WGW, Covenant was able, through the breaking of the Law of Life, to come into the world of the Living only a little bit. He's just peaking in, not crossing over, if you will. He's not "in" enough to be resurrected, like Hollian. But he's in just enough to allow him to impose his will against Foul and save the Arch. After this was done, he popped back into being Dead again.

And now Linden has truly resurrected him. He's crossed over the boundary between life and death completely now.

And that was what Caerroil Wildwood and Caer-Caveral had planned all along.

[Mr. Broken]

Damn it I cant disagree with that , whats going on here? To make matters worse it made me think of a question that I have been asking myself since I first read The Wounded Land, what do the dead care about the future?

[Sill]

Damn it I cant disagree with that , whats going on here? To make matters worse it made me think of a question that I have been asking myself since I first read The Wounded Land, what do the dead care about the future?

Perhaps they really don't care about the future, they just want some payback...Here and now.

[Rigel]

Well, the Dead care about the future for two reasons:

1) They care about those they know and love,
2) They care about their own continued existence. Granted, they aren't *alive*, but they still obviously exist in some form. If LF breaks the Arch of Time, who's to say that their existence wouldn't be threatened as much as everyone living?

Put in other words, breaking the Arch of Time would destroy you in a much more complete way than mere Death.

--

As for WF's post, I never thought of Covenent as being "alive", even a little bit, at the end of WGW. I thought of him as "Dead, but able to act on his own". The dead we see acting before him were compelled, like puppets (Kevin, Elena, even the "Old Death" creatures in TPTP).

Even so, it seems obvious (now) that TC's victory at the end of WGW wasn't the only reason for breaking the Law, but that Sunder and Hollian (and, especially, Anele) were to be extremely important to the future of the Land.

--

The main question I have is, why wouldn't raising Hollian rouse the Worm? What is it about killing a Forestal that hides, masks or diminishes that kind of power?

[Relayer]

The main question I have is, why wouldn't raising Hollian rouse the Worm? What is it about killing a Forestal that hides, masks or diminishes that kind of power?

I think that simply breaking a Law isn't enough to bother the Worm. I don't think it had anything to do w/ killing CC blocking the power. But since TC-Timewarden-Arch are all linked, this is much more intimately linked to the foundations of the universe.

Or, as I've suggested elsewhere, Covenant IS the Worm (metaphorically speaking) and so it's not some arcane use of power that's then rousing the Worm, it's standing right there in front of us.

[Unfettered One]

Well, I agree with Rigel. I think the breaking of the law of life allowed the dead to summon themselves and act according to their own will, and ultimately paved the way for TCs ressurection.

[wayfriend]

But does anyone else think maybe Caer-Caveral had planned for this day all along?

There are several good reasons I can think of for why Hollian's resurrection did not rouse the Worm.

It could be, as Relayer said, that Hollian is not Covenant, not intimitely linked to the Arch.

It could be the nature of the power used. Linden is using white gold and the Staff of Law. Caer-Caveral used ... well, something different. It might be because Linden used TWO powers while Caer-Caveral used one.

It could be the nature of the weilder. Caer-Caveral knew a lot more about what he was doing than Linden did. He could have pitched and tuned his power more accurately for his purpose, and kept it away from the Worm.

It could be there was an Insequent hiding behind a bush nearby when Hollian was resurrected. The Insequent are able to protect the Arch. Yes, this seems dumb, but it is now a possibility.

It could be the krill doesn't work as good as it used to.

It could be that the Elohim LET the worm be roused this time, in order to pressure Linden in some way.

It could be that the worm was roused because of something Wildwood built into the Runes on Linden's Staff. Or because of the Staff's blackness.

It could be another effect of Kevin's Dirt.

It could be the Worm is more restless these days, what with skurj crawling around and ceasures formicating on it left and right.

"Done, Timewarden?" Infelice snapped viciously. "Done? She has roused the Worm of the World's End. Such magicks must be answered. Because of her madness and folly, every Elohim will be devoured."

Such magicks must be answered. That doesn't tell us a whole lot about why. It need not mean that any resurrection would rouse the Worm. Such magicks could refer to the use of white gold, or of the runes on Linden's Staff, or any number of things.

[Mr. Broken]

"Withhold - and be lost. The Land is ill served by those who will not pay the price of love." Caer-Caveral. These were his last words before Sunder stabs him with the Krill, and as his spirit is departing Donaldson writes, And as it rose, Linden seemed to hear the fundamental fabric of the world tearing.I dont know if there is an answer in there for you, but it seemed to me that when he said that he wasnt just speaking to Sunder, he was speaking to Linden, and Covenant as well.

[amanibhavam]

My only issue with the theory is that if it (and some others circulating the Watch) is true then there are too many omniscient/clairvoyant characters who seem to be able to plan millennia ahead; the Insequent, the Forestals. Well, for my taste, at least. It makes me sympathize with Linden (there, I've said it), no wonder she feels lost amongst all these powers who seemingly know everything but reveal little and she is forced to grope about and try desperate measures, such as resurrecting the only man she can expect some answers from.

Gosh, do I miss the simple humanity of Mhoram. He may have been a seer and oracle, may have had his hunches, but was at least mortal, fallible, loveable.

[Stutty]

On some level I have to agree with you amani, but surely it makes sense for the avatar of the forrest to think and plan in that scale of years.

stutt

[native]

The other inconsistency in the end of White Gold Wielder is that no-one actually summoned Covenant, unlike all the other dead people. One might assume he went straight into the arch of time because of his nature, but then how could he be dismissed as Foul could have done and Findail in fact did.

Perhaps one explanation is that Covenant is a special case,and you can't draw wider conclusion about how law works derived from him. Although I hate to dismiss such a good post so airily.

[wayfriend]

In TWL, the Dead appear to Covenant. Now, you can argue that this proves that they can appear without being summoned, or you can argue that Covenant unconsciously summoned them. But either way, it is sufficient to justify Covenant appearing after he was dead.

Is Covenant a special case? Well, I try to presume that the author intends for the working of things to be understandable, or else how can he tell his story? So I try to understand them.

Stutty, you remind me that Wildwood asked, "We were formed to stand as guardians in the Creator's stead. Must it transpire that beauty and truth shall pass utterly when we are gone?"

So we know for certain that Wildwood was thinking long and hard about how to preserve the Earth long after his own demise. Can we doubt that Covenant won't be a significant aspect of the answer to his question?

[Fuzzy_Logic]

Dead Kevin and Dea Elena both acted not through their own will, but through hte powe rof others. therefore they were tools. And we know how SRD feels about tools.

Dead Covenant acted of his own volition, and made *choices* that mattered even after he died.

Breaking the Law of Death allowed the dead to be tools, but that wasn't enough for covenant. He need to act for himself, and *that* is why he needed to break the law of life.

[Ur Dead]

I though Caer-Caveral's Last Act played in Pokeepsie.

[Fist and Faith]

Maybe breaking the Law of Life accomplished two things:

1) Allowing the Dead to cross back into Life, as happened with Hollian.

2) Allowing the Dead to act, as happened when Covenant beat Foul at the end of WGW.


But what's needed now is for Covenant to not merely act, but to cross back into Life. I don't have any problem thinking CC planned for this. SRD intended the Final Chrons while writing the 2nd, after all.

[SGuilfoyle1966]

F&F, I think you hit the nail on the head.
But I thought I put in a post, what we see about the Law of Life in regards to Hollian, the Law of Death with the dead like Mhoram and Kev, that's how those laws effected those born inside the Land and subject at all times to those law.
Covenant is indeed different because he's from the outside. Subject to it because he's there. it's a jurisdictional thing. But not subject to it by his very nature. He's subject to the reality of life and death in "our" world.
I posted in another topic a, long collection of thoughts about Linden actually becoming more powerful than Covenant with this particular act.
There was a quote from the One Tree, about power. It's either never enough, or it's not the right kind of power.
And I linked it, somehow, to Lord Foul's Bane, with Foamfollower's contemplation on hope and power.
What use is power if it's not power over death? Because if it's not power over death, than all power is inevitably a chimera, a false hope.
When we come to White Gold Wielder, we see in the breaking of the Law of Life that Covenant, for a brief second, thought something about that might give him one kind of hope, but he quickly dismisses that. He is left with the plan he's had since Revelstone.
But the brief hope he had held out is that somehow, he can survive IN THE REAL WORLD, defeat death THERE, somehow, and live and love Linden.
He didn't conceive of a plan to do that. But Linden, taking all the awesome powers she has, a hint from Caerroil Wildwood, manages to bring him back to physical life in the Land.
I don't think Caerroil Wildwood was being omniscient with this act, but I do think he was seeing a possible out. he knew he wasn't going to be around, he perhaps didn't even foresee a future student like Caer-Caveral.
he wants the forests to survive, but doesn't conceive that they can. Shall truth and beauty pass utterly from the earth? He wants Linden to answer that question, and gives her some knowledge of the law of death and life to accomplish it.
Lot going on in this speculation.

[amanibhavam]

off: doesn't Linden already possess power over death by the mere fact of her existence in the Land? for all intents and purposed she is dead in the real world and is already living an afterlife - more than any of us can claim... :off off

[Mr. Broken]

Wayfriend do you believe that Caveral's foresight included the Skurj, and Kastenessen's occupation of Andelain?

[native]

And do you think that Caer Caveral foresaw that his actions would destroy the Arch of Time? Because if he did he would have been better off getting Covenant to hand over the ring to Linden.

[wayfriend]

SB: Caer-Caveral saw that the breaking of the Law of Life would be necessary. This is certain. The question is, necessary for what?

I'm thinking that it was barely necessary for the Covenant's second defeat of Foul. It was a lot more necessary for Covenant's true resurrection. So I toy with the idea that Caer-Caveral saw ahead this far.

If he saw that Covenant would need to die, and then act from Death, could he not also see that Covenant would need to become truly alive again?

Remember, he would surely know that Foul's defeat would be, again, temporary. Would Caer-Caveral break the Law of Life for a temporary solution? If Wildwood instilled into Caer-Caveral his quest for a solution to the preservation of truth and beauty, to his concern of how the Land would be preserved after he was gone, then it's no stretch to see that he might have been planning for a final solution, a solution beyond his temporary demise. Could he have seen that Covenant - alive - would be necessary?

native: your question is tinged with despite, but underneath is a real good question. Caer-Caveral went so far as to break the Law of Life, which allowed Time itself to become unstable. The Arch is in danger like never before, because of Caer-Caveral's actions. So Caer-Caveral has a history of destroying for the sake of a larger plan. What if the ultimate destruction of the Arch is part of a plan that is larger than the survival of the Land? What if he has moved passed holding on and is preparing for letting it all go, because it leads to something better?