Caer-Caveral's Last Act

[Relayer]

Mr. Broken, is Kastenessen in Andelain? I thought that was something that Roger (posing as TC) said, to keep Linden away. But I don't think Kasty's actually able to go there.

As to the main topic, I think we have to look at CC in the same way that SRD described Foul: he's able to see possibilities and contingencies, and therefore can act without knowing all the specific outcomes. CC could see the likelihood of certain necessities, and so saw the advantages in breaking the Law... but he probably didn't see all of the specifics.

[Mr. Broken]

Mr. Relayer you are the second person today to refer to me as Mr. Broken and I have enjoyed it so much that I may have to change my handle. Wayfriend was the other and I find myself swaying under the influence of the power of suggestion.

[Mr. Broken]

done!

[Relayer]

[wayfriend]

Hail, Mr. Broken.

[native]

native: your question is tinged with despite, but underneath is a real good question.....What if he has moved passed holding on and is preparing for letting it all go, because it leads to something better?

I may change my handle to Herem now that I have been found out.

[Mr. Broken]

Wayfriend you have provoked my curiosity concerning the Forrestals, but Im not thanking you because you have also provoked an intensive re-read .

[shadowbinding shoe]

I mislike this tendency to give various characters these gargantuan abilities to predict and plan for everything thousands of years before they actually even start to pan out. You give them way too much credit and you make the story less by it.

Just because vain characters like the Elohim claim to have known what would happen at present during Linden's first visit to the Land doesn't make it fact. I for one doubt very much that they saw beyond the crisis that was the Sunbane and the ring-wielder having no health sense.

Infelice spouts bullshit explanations about how she knew all about what would happen now 3.5 thousands years ago when there was no, I repeat, no sign at all that this was the case. If she suspected that Linden would pose such a great danger to her ilk she wouldn't have tried to convince her to grasp for the reins of power.

And are the Insequent that all knowing? Each of them acquire lore on one subject and uses it for all it's worth. The reason the Ak Haru knew a lot about the going ons in Berek's time is because he came from the future and read his history books. He wasn't a seer or something.

Now what was the deal with the forestals and the breaking of the law of life? I don't believe they 'predicted the future' or something. Rather it served their interests. In the immediate sense because it made Covenant able to protect the Land from beyond the grave. And in the longer term it made possible a resurrection of the poor dying One Forest. Face it, the Forestals' number one priority is the fate of their forest. If a price can be paid then it'd be worth paying. The laws of life and death (and time) chain the forest to its chopping block. If they can be removed... then that is what the forestals would want to do. We see it in what both of them say.

The plan concocted for Covenant in the second chronicles to defeat Lord Foul was plainly roundabout and risky if it was really just about defeating Lord Foul and the Sunbane. But if we look back we can see that it was given to him by the dead which were controlled at that period by the forestal. It was his way of ensuring that breaking the Law of Life would become necessary for Covenant to succeed in his quest, thereby opening the door for the One Forest to be resurrected.

[earthbrah]

For me, CC's last act centers around two facts:

1. TC's resurrection
2. Anele's life

I do believe that his action implies a far-seeing implication (TC being able to be brought back to life). At the same time, his short range sight (the life of Hollian and thus Anele) has far-reaching implications too. It seems that he acted out of what he thought were possibilities, potentialities. Rather, his act was based on an uncertainty; he somehow knew that the Land would have a need in the future, a flexibility created by breaking another fundamental law, but what that need exactly was he couldn't be sure of. Thus, he broke the Law of Life in an attempt to create the conditions for Wildwood's question to Linden about truth and beauty passing utterly finding an answer. It may be that that answer involves something greater, requiring the end of the Arch...

--

What significance does Anele (the hope of the Land) have? We're all speculating about that. What significance does TC's resurrection have? Again, we're all speculating about that too.

There are a lot of interconnections to consider on this excellent thread:

1. powers used:
a. krill
b. Staff of Law
c. white gold

2. Caerroil Wildwood
3. Caer Caveral
4. Worm supposedly roused
5. life's relationship to death
6. Arch of Time in danger
7. more...?

[jwaneeta]

[ I thought of this in another thread, but it seemed better as it's own topic.]

I find that I am thinking about Caer-Caveral all over again. Specifically, he broke the Law of Life, and I'm wondering why.

I'm late finding this thread, WF, but I just wanted to tell you how tasty it is. I agree with your theory and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Since reading RoTE I've had an idea that Caer-Caveral's plan was a lot more far reaching than simply ressurecting Hollian and her unborn child, and that it even went beyond TC's defeat of the Despiser in WGW. In TWL Caer-Caveral says:

"When I fail in the end -- as fail I must, for I am yet Hile Troy withal, and the in the I must not refuse to sacrifice my power -- the will be no resitution for the abysm of that loss..."

and two things about that statement struck me. First and most obviously, his "failing," or ending, was a choice. He could refuse to do it or not. It was a sacrifice he embraced in aid of a larger goal, and the damage (temporary, as it turned out) that would reult to Andelain was in his opinion worth it.

Second, the "I am yet Hile Troy withal," bit. He wasn't saying "I'm Hile Troy" because he was eyeless, or had a history with TC, or something like that -- he was identifying himself with human Hile Troy the strategist. The defense of Andelain is often described in military terms ("I am doomed to fail this war"), and I make little doubt that the vestigal remaining Troyness in Caer-Caveral regarded it as a siege, holding out against a hostile power.

So Troy the strategist and Caer-Caeveral the pussiant Forestal are (were?) one guy. The Forestal had the magical might and the Troy aspect brought the tactics. And as a Forestal, Caer-Caveral was foresighted into the bargain -- a pretty potent combination, then, for playing a long game.

****

Oh, IE, you dog of a browser! You crashed and ate my post, you cur-thing -- the post that I typed out with my aching Artist's Elbow arm! But I defy you, thingie of hell! I had it on a clipboard, bwah! I spit on you, beastie creature of wickeness! Ahem.

However, I lost WF's quote about SRD's structure of White Gold Wielder. I will say, then, that I agree -- that trilogy needed a conclusion, and as a writer SRD provided it. But I think he left himself a back door, a way into future plot potential if he needed it, and that's what SRD is about with the latest Chrons.

I'm just going to post this before 1)I lose the whole ball of wax; 2)my arm falls off.

(Oh, Caer-Caveral, only you could motivate me to post with my right arm sizzling and popping like fried egg. I am truly your fan, CC. )

[iQuestor]

WF:

Quote:
"I don't have your hands — can't touch that kind of power anymore. I'm not physically alive. And I can be dismissed. I'm like the Dead. They can be invoked — and they can be sent away."

Bold is mine.


I am Like the dead. not I am dead.

I am not physically alive -- this doesnt have to mean physically dead either , does it -- maybe not dead, just not ... corporeal?

[jwaneeta]

*luxuriates in a rare day off*

One thing puzzles me, though. If, as I can well believe, Caer-Caveral laid the groundwork for TC's resurrection, why is TC cutting up so rough about it? If Caer-Caveral had a plan, it stands to reason that Covenant could observe it from his Dead, all-seeing perspective. Yet when Linden does her whammy, he show upon the mortal plane wringing his hands and acting all aghast. I get that nothing ever seems to make Covenant happy so that's nothing new, but his reaction is worriesome. Maybe it's neccesary for suspense and cliffhangerness? I dunno.

But if Covenant does comprehend Caer-Caveral's scheme/plan/strategy and sees disaster in it, why doesn't Caer-Caveral? I suppose Thomas Covenant is higher up in the hierarchy of post-Death omniscience, in which case: sucks to be all of them, Elena included. I can just imagine how tense and unpleasant it must have been on the astral plane. There's TC bracing the Arch of Time, and a little way off there's Elena and Caer-Caveral being all Law Breaky and broken, and nobody's on speaking terms with anybody else and it's all so <i>awkward.</i> What a way to spend eternity.

[amanibhavam]

Nota bene TC's apparent dismay at the end of FR may have happened not because Linden had resurrected him but because Linden had possibly awakened the Worm in the process.

[earthbrah]

TC's "what have you done?" can be interpreted in so many ways...

jwaneeta writes"

But if Covenant does comprehend Caer-Caveral's scheme/plan/strategy and sees disaster in it, why doesn't Caer-Caveral?

This is what I was referring to in my earlier post. Caer Caveral might have known that there would be a need for such a thing in the far distant future, but the exact thing and the exact method of bringing it about, as well as the result of it were probably unknown to him. His breaking of the Law of Life may have just served to make things flexible enough for the possibility, and that was enough for him as his last act.

[Ur Dead]

TC's question plies so many interpretations:

what have you done?

Is TC memory been erased since he was dead and he thinks he was in Mt. Thunder ready to face Foul?

Is he asking her what she has done after she translated to the land? What steps has she taken.

Is he fully knowledgeable about her act to raise him and he's questioning her judgement?

The ending was like Runes. All we saw in that book was two figures on horseback coming toward Revelstone and who was reconized. Little did we know it was a setup for something different.

SRD wrote it with an unexpected result.

[earthbrah]

And I have no doubt that the results of TC's resurrection will be unexpected.

Though it's fun to speculate, that statement of his is so ambiguous as to give us really no idea what it can truly mean. It's like that damn Elohim's warning of the halfhand...

[amanibhavam]

FR last sentence:

"Linden, what have you done?"

AATE first sentence:

"Linden, what have you done? I have told you so many times not to wear that pair of jeans! Makes your @ss look really fat."

[Relayer]

It may also be in the *way* that Linden resurrects him. Maybe something about using that much power, or those instruments, or maybe because she "brought" the Harrow along, or any number of things that don't literally refer to his being resurrected. For example, amani's comment that it's about waking the Worm.

Or maybe it's that he wanted her to come to Andelain to talk to him and work with him while he's still dead and the Timewarden. We may be misinterpreting what Caer-Caveral wanted. Or, CC might have been wrong.

Or...

[jwaneeta]

It may also be in the *way* that Linden resurrects him. Maybe something about using that much power, or those instruments, or maybe because she "brought" the Harrow along, or any number of things that don't literally refer to his being resurrected. For example, amani's comment that it's about waking the Worm.

Very true. These All-Seeing Dead making speculation difficult, because it seems there are limits to their foresight, but we don't know what they are. I know, I know, without peril there's no plot, so they have to be somewhat falilble. But to what dgree? What is existence beyond Death like, exactly? Do the Dead communicate, take counsel, etc? Do they just sit around? Are they merely potentialities until somebody evokes them? TC's had a job all this time, holding upthe Arch... but he's exceptional, I think. Heh. Sorry, I just like talking about this stuff.

So, you're right -- I hadn't considered that maybe Linden is doing what they want, but going about it in entirely the wrong fashion. That makes sense. The "plan" might have been to give her the means, but she's making unexpected choices with unintended consequences. I'll buy that.

However, getting back to WF's original position, I do thing that Caer-Caveral had a far-reaching scheme and that it was completely benign in intent. At the end of White Gold Wielder Linden reflects:

In a paradoxical way, Caer-Caveral's self sacrifice felt like a promise of hope.

Since the story continued past Coevenant's (temporary) defeat of the Despiser, I'd like to think the hope continues beyond it too, if you know what I mean -- into the new story we're reading now.

We may be misinterpreting what Caer-Caveral wanted. Or, CC might have been wrong. Or...

True enough. Though I hope he was right...

There are so many excellent theories floating around the Watch. I lean toward the more optimistic, myself, but that's a matter of preference rather overwhelming evidence. I just love the Land and the characters and fervently hope they're all able to catch a break in the end. It's high time something went right.

[Seppi2112]

Or isn't it possible that CC never intended LA to go this far? The direct outcome of CC's sacrifice was TC's victory at the end of WGW, and (we must assume) the birth of a (potentially) new forestal in Anele.

But neither Elena nor CC (the lawbreakers as they're referred to) did enough to bring TC back to life... LA didn't act as a direct consequence of their actions, but just plowed the fertile ground they had left behind.

To be a lawbreaker is to change the rules; if all LA did was continue upon the path set out by Elena and CC she would be blameless for resurrecting TC, because she wasn't breaking any rules - rather she was just following the new rules Elena and CC created.