What if we had the Land's gift of sight here in our world?

[Coercri]

This is something that I've contemplated often, what would a completely honest world be like

Society would collapse into anarchy, which would amplify the negative images and input bombarding people. Countries would fall, cities would burn, economy and trade would crumble, and I think a large part of the world population would subsequently starve to death in the ensuing famine.

Most likely. But the end result, living in a world in which we are unable to lie to ourselves or others. In which we are forced to see first hand the damage we do to others & the environment ~which would hopefully mean we wouldn't go there in the first place ~ Splendid.

[Ur Dead]

Does X-ray vison come with it???

[Blackhawk]

well now..there is earthsight here in our own land, very limited but we call it intuition, coincidence or dejavu,.. even saying something someone else is about to say..my wife and i do that constantly. the under rated and constantly put aside..sixth sense. lets hope it makes a comeback..

[Relayer]

Exactly, Blackhawk. I do that too, having a "knowing" about something. And yea, hopefully it will become more common.

[Zarathustra]

Alright, if one takes the analogy into literal reality ...

People would very quickly realize that everyone around them was a cotton picking liar, from start to finish. Remember the film Liar Liar? Imagine that on a global scale. Television and radio would convey the lie just as well as face to face contact, so there'd be no getting around the fact.
Motivations, such as greed, would become instantly apparent. Since greed and other negative emotions are so prevalent on this planet, that is what people would be bombarded with from the word Go.
Illness and sickness, in people and otherwise, are universal in our real world. And these would become obvious and inescapable.

Since there would be no way to shut this out, short of total sensory deprivation, and because there is no way to quickly alter things to resemble the Land - where people do not lie, are not motivated by darkness, and illness is not pandemic - a lot of people would go stark raving mad. Society would collapse into anarchy, which would amplify the negative images and input bombarding people. Countries would fall, cities would burn, economy and trade would crumble, and I think a large part of the world population would subsequently starve to death in the ensuing famine.
What emerged from the ruin would be a world where people were akin to the Lords, Woodhelvinin, and Stonedowners, albeit with high technology. They would be like the people of the Land, if only to remain sane in the light of their new perceptions.

People would simply have to adjust to the utter chaos of the sky, and the inherent violence of the sun. Perhaps a whole underground world would be established by those who could not do so.

I think our inability to know each other's true thoughts is a blessing. Our lies preserve our society. Imagine if everyone you saw, you immediately knew what they thought about you. If you're Brad Pitt, I suppose this wouldn't be too bad. But for the rest of us imperfect or merely annoying mortals, being bombarded by the truth would become an unbearable weight of unwelcome reality. Our fictions and illusions insulate us. Only a fraction of our population is strong enough to face reality unflinchingly.

If lies are useful, I think greed is indispensable. Greed is life. It's the engine which drives us further up the evolution ladder. Trees are greedy for the light. Humans are greedy for control over their material existence. The greediest people are the ones who do the most to move this world. Bill Gates has touched more people in a more tangible way than any spiritual leader. Take away greed, and we stagnate.

Back to Lurch's and Esmer's points: I agree. However, I don't think this is "spiritual" or "magical." It doesn't take a spirit to elevate your consciousness. And seeing with elevated consciousness is very real. It's the difference between looking at the field of stars and seeing a stationary crystalline sphere, and seeing a spinning disc of gas and dust. The difference between looking at our bodies and seeing dirt animated by with God's breath, and stardust animated by incremental natural selection. Mankind as a whole is elevating his consciousness. We are becoming increasingly aware of our existence and its nature. I don't know what you're talking about Esmer--our sight isn't devolving at all. It's getting exponentially sharper and more penetrating. Ancient men looked at the world and saw myths. We look at the world and peel back those layers of myth to reveal more accurate truths. There's no need to infuse mysticism into this process. It's very real. We are overcoming our physical limitations by embracing our physical actuality. "Spiritual" rebirth for humans will happen from the outside-in, not the inside out . . . or perhaps they'll meet in the middle.

[Blackhawk]

only the lords could read thoughts during a meld and it could be refused as shetra did to Hyrim and mhoram did to the whole council, from what i remember it was a new ability the lords had recently aquired. it would surely make us do something to prevent all the damage were dong to the environment though. and the bloodguard and haruchai could speak to each other with their minds but im not sure if it was something they could conceal from another haruchai.

it would sure make being a doctor alot easier and hurtloam..the end all cure... though here the hurtloam would be recessed so far into the earth we would have to mine for it.

[wayfriend]

But for the rest of us imperfect or merely annoying mortals, being bombarded by the truth would become an unbearable weight of unwelcome reality. Our fictions and illusions insulate us. Only a fraction of our population is strong enough to face reality unflinchingly.

Your argument supposes a weakness for truth is a given.

But what if the reason that we are weak is because we grow up and grow comfortable being isolated from the truth? If we were made to see the truth all the time, could we not then be strong enough to accept it?

If lies are useful, I think greed is indispensable. Greed is life.

Greed provides goals to creatures too dumb or insensate to imagine goals. Greed is primitive. Greed becomes a detriment when you are strong. Greed is a vestige. Greed is everything civilization is built to overcome. Greed is needless when you are sufficiently civillized. Greed is a runaway urge with no one driving the conscience. Greed is what every religion denounces. Greed is the ultimate cause for every enemy you have. Greed is war, greed is genocide, greed is slavery, greed is robbery, greed is murder. Greed is worshipped by evil, greed is excused by the treacherous, greed is the tool of oppressors. Greed tests the worthy, the worthy are not tempted by greed. Greed is need beyond needing. Greed is bad.

[Blackhawk]

But for the rest of us imperfect or merely annoying mortals, being bombarded by the truth would become an unbearable weight of unwelcome reality. Our fictions and illusions insulate us. Only a fraction of our population is strong enough to face reality unflinchingly.

Your argument supposes a weakness for truth is a given.

But what if the reason that we are weak is because we grow up and grow comfortable being isolated from the truth? If we were made to see the truth all the time, could we not then be strong enough to accept it?

If lies are useful, I think greed is indispensable. Greed is life.

Greed provides goals to creatures too dumb or insensate to imagine goals. Greed is primitive. Greed becomes a detriment when you are strong. Greed is a vestige. Greed is everything civilization is built to overcome. Greed is needless when you are sufficiently civillized. Greed is a runaway urge with no one driving the conscience. Greed is what every religion denounces. Greed is the ultimate cause for every enemy you have. Greed is war, greed is genocide, greed is slavery, greed is robbery, greed is murder. Greed is worshipped by evil, greed is excused by the treacherous, greed is the tool of oppressors. Greed tests the worthy, the worthy are not tempted by greed. Greed is need beyond needing. Greed is bad.

Wayfriend,...very nice ..i couldnt have said it better if i had tried.

[Auleliel]

Greed is life.

Greed is bad.

So life is bad?

[Relayer]

... ... ... Greed is worshipped by evil, greed is excused by the treacherous, greed is the tool of oppressors. Greed tests the worthy, the worthy are not tempted by greed. Greed is need beyond needing. Greed is bad.

Wayfriend,...very nice ..i couldnt have said it better if i had tried.

Likewise. Good post.

I'll also add, what would the world be like if we did truly see and understand each other? We can't project our current selves -- caught up in ego, need, and manipulation -- into that world.

Spoiler

blackhawk: the bloodguard and haruchai could speak to each other with their minds but im not sure if it was something they could conceal from another haruchai.

Generally they can't, but Stave figures out how to do so in FR

Edit: this is weird. I just got a new computer and in Opera on this machine the Spoiler tags reverse the text so it's white on black, but I can still read it... anyone else having this?

[[Syl]]

Tough call, but I split off the last two posts. You're welcome to restart the debate here if you put a little more TC meat on it.

[Linna Heartbooger]

Wow, it's actually pretty fascinating to read this thread... I think this is an issue that really "maps out" people with regards to ...their worldviews and belief priorities.

The question of questions then remains: how could such a thing happen to a race? How have we devolved from "perceiving with our entire energetic organism" to just merely "looking with our eyes"?

Well, I think some people have pointed towards this explanation on this thread, but I would say this: I think that alot of the time babies and little kids (even today) start out having a good bit of ability to sense things (intuitively and empathically, for example) they are not told or shown.

But as they grow up, daily life constantly requests them to tell little lies - both to themselves and others:

A worried parent schools herself to calmness and tells her child, "No, I'm just fine. Leave me alone." And that child is expected, socially, to act as though he accepts that because that's what he's been told, even if his intuition screams otherwise. After a few hundred times of this, the child becomes blind in some areas in order to force his perceptions to line up with what he's been told.

A peer whose friendship is valued says, "I like this. Do you like it too?" And even if she doesn't, a child is still expected to tell a "little lie" to strengthen the relationship. After she tells a few hundred lies to strengthen the friendships she desperately wants to have, she is probably less aware what her own perspective on the world was... because you start to believe lies if you tell them enough, right?

[Blackhawk]

(A subject i know very little about:) Aren't there people who claim to be able to read the 'aura' of living things, and to be able to diagnose physical problems and mental states?

Does this not sound like healthsense?

Personally, I believe truthsense would be just as good for our world, as healthsense.

Unfortunately our teachers and schools, society and people (parents) saying things like..theres no such things as ghosts and thats just a coincidence or, your seeing things..you need to see a shrink, I know people who can see peoples Auras, i can see the energy field but not in color like some can. It is real if your mind isnt closed to it,Its not a supernatural ability just close observation with some guides on what to look for, we have always had the ability (sixth sense) we just buried it unwittingly while we grew up. my limits are extemely small compared to my mother but the abilities are still present, someones twirling their finger as if I'm insane I imagine. Labeling people as Crazy for having abilities they have locked up... that has pushed the sixth sense underground. when someone sees something they dont understand, it frightens their "the way things work" values. before you scoff at this try it.

my description of an Aura is pretty lacking.... you cant just look at someone and see it (well you can if your familiar with it)..its sort of a non focus ability (what I see is like a heatwave..not wavy like that but the translucent part of it). if you really want to try it with someone..have them stand against a white wall..it doesnt have to be white but its easier. now..you need to just look at that persons head but unfocus your eyes slightly if you can, you don’t have to keep them unfocused..it just helps spotting it, look..mostly to the area around the top of their head.. i say the head because its the easiest place to see it. it will help if someone is asking them questions.. things that make them happy or exited because when someone is down or depressed it gets really thin (a lot harder to pick out), the more exited or enthusiastic , it gets bigger...ive seen it anywhere from half an inch to about 9-10 inches but still never in colors like others i have known, mainly my mother. she taught me alot that i have forgotten but at least she left my mind open as a kid. unfortunately my mind has been closed somewhat now that im an adult, It Happens..not that i dont believe but i didnt see any use for what i knew, the ability is like any ability..the more practice the easier it is, but what practical use could it serve? Well that depends, it may come as a good use for a detective and most surely a doctor, or something like that. you can go into meditation also to clear your mind. and my mother does do healing,…. It’s a method called Raike, that and MANY other things that I cant explain. She used it on me when I had a collapsed lung..hehe not for the lung itself but she eased some of the pain I was having, its primarily heat from her hands.. Don’t ask me how because I don’t know that, if there were such a thing as the Unfettered or a Lord my mother would be one. Or maybe the healer in morrinmoss. oh and as far as telling her a lie...forget about it, if you do it you better do it in monotone and over the phone.

[Relayer]

Blackhawk, the healing you're talking about is called "Reiki" ... just in case anyone wants to research it the right spelling helps I've been using it for at least 10 years and it can be powerful. I know many people who have skills like you, and more. I'm very intuitive, often have an ability to know things, but don't see auras or any of that.

As to the bigger picture... just the fact that we call these things "sixth sense" or "supernatural" is a way that society has created a mindset that all such things are abnormal. When we start to realize that these things are real... when we start to notice all the coincidences (I prefer to call them 'synchronicities') that lead us to be at the right place or to meet the right person that helps us take the next step in our journey... we begin to step into our true nature.

[Blackhawk]

Blackhawk, the healing you're talking about is called "Reiki" ... just in case anyone wants to research it the right spelling helps I've been using it for at least 10 years and it can be powerful. I know many people who have skills like you, and more. I'm very intuitive, often have an ability to know things, but don't see auras or any of that.

As to the bigger picture... just the fact that we call these things "sixth sense" or "supernatural" is a way that society has created a mindset that all such things are abnormal. When we start to realize that these things are real... when we start to notice all the coincidences (I prefer to call them 'synchronicities') that lead us to be at the right place or to meet the right person that helps us take the next step in our journey... we begin to step into our true nature.

sorry about that mis spell, besides my mother i have seen a lady I know perform Reiki on my boss and my boss had this skeptical look on her face ..and i was sitting there smiling and she all of sudden says...wow..what are you doing?? its getting really hot..and i laughed hard and so did the lady working on her..she looked at both of us like we were crazy. the funny thing is it helped her shoulder and she didnt ask the woman how or what she did. Relayer..if you perform Reiki, seeing an Aura would be a breeze for you. hehe..unless you have really bad vision

[Relayer]

Nope, never been able to. I can sense energy, but not "visually." We all have different gifts and different ways of interacting w/ the world... mine tend to be more about information, feelings, intention, that type of stuff, and usually it shows up as a thought or feeling of knowing rather than through sight.

This is one of the reasons I'm a life coach and not an energy healer

[Hellbinder]

Runes spoiler:

Spoiler

Linden's trip through a caesure to secure the Staff of Law kind of proves that good CAN be accomplished through evil means, so I ask:

Would it be evil to possess bush and make him throw himself off the grand canyon? And then make Cheney turn his own shotgun on himself?

Or is that going too far?

Was linden right in trying to stop covenant through possession because she was *convinced* that he was making a horrible mistake and was about to destroy the land?

Isnt it just possible that you could be making the same mistake? Do you have all the information? Are you sure that your decisions with your limited knowledge of the situations around the world would really be the better ones?

It is the height of folly to assume that the ant has a better view of world events than the bird that flies through the heavens.

<mod edit>

If your premise is correct, then the actions of the president that you deem evil, have laid the foundation for Freedom to an oppressed and abused people. Those actions have at least made the possibility for Women and Children to be free and secure where they had no such chance before. Even though the path *currently* is difficult.

How can you not see these very lessons demonstrated for you in the Thomas Coventant series?

[[Syl]]

Take it to the 'Tank.

[danlo]

FWIW I was about say something about that as well, but you must admit that The na-Mhoram's initial questions were bound to set off that type of reaction by somebody...

[[Syl]]

I was hoping they wouldn't.

Still, it's a tough line to walk. On one hand, it's important to talk about the parallels between The Chronicles, current events, our lives, etc., but when the focus starts shifting to the posters rather than the writing or isn't about Donaldson's work at all...