Science Vs. Religion? Not always

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Lord Mhoram
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Post by Lord Mhoram »

russmeister,
The thing about this that strikes me as absurd - the attempt to explain externally, via empirical observation, something that is uniquely internal to man's nature.
What is absurd about trying to scientifically explain something that is indeed "uniquely internal to man's nature"? Because it is unique to humanity, it demands some sort of investigation; simply saying it is unique is uninteresting and accomplishes nothing. The only proper way to examine it interestingly, objectively, and effectively is to work somehow within the confines of scientific method.
The sense of good and evil, right and wrong, fairness and unfairness, are not explainable by observation and experiment, and (usually by explanations of the type "This behavior evolved for the good of society and thus passed natural selection" or whatever) require a leap of faith no less spectacular than that of accepting a belief in a Creator.
I don't think that meta-evolutionary explanations for human behavior and psychology require a "leap of faith." Read any of the technical literature on those subjects; they aren't intuitive mumbo-jumbo (woops ;-)); they try to provide solid, empirical claims and theoretical and evidence-based explanations.
From inside of Christianity I can say that tremendous importance is ascribed to language as well, as all speech is seen as a form of sub-creation (ref:Tolkien) of the Word of God (Jesus Christ, the Son of God) and its misuse is actually serious business.
Yet language can also be examined as a natural phenomenon. From Saussure and the structuralists, to the Chomskyans and "biolinguists," compelling philosophical concepts about language have arisen from scientific inquiry into the subject. I have no doubt that the same principle could be successfully applied to a study of religion.
My religion doesn't cry out for a biological explanation.
Why not? It's become a virtual truism that social, economic, and political phenomena can have very real connections to biological explanations. The anthropologist Jared Diamond, for example, theorizes that the rise and fall of civilizations is intrinsically connected to natural conditions. What I'm trying to say that is if we can objectively examine religion as some sort of social phenomenon, as I believe we can without cheapening its merits, then we could possibly link it to some naturalistic/scientific explanations.
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Post by Prebe »

Rusmeister wrote:I don't expect to convince you, but I hope that at least some people here will recognize that a person can simultaneously be a Christian and a rational thinker.
I know that there are rationally thinking christians. I only start questioning their rationality once they start trying to justify their belieft/the scripture using science, because that is bound to fail. It always ends in convoluted non-parsimonious appologies, that are aimed at people with little understanding of science.

In fact I resent that science is often used by religions as a tool to make believers more sure in their faith, because the logic always fall apart when scrutinized.

For me to consider a christian (or any other deist) rational, there must be waterproof separation of their spiritual and physical world view.
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Post by Blackhawk »

I love theories..and thats all every single scholar that has ever spoken or written about religion is giving you. their point of view which they in turn got from someone else and so on, a very extensive point of view but none the less not their own thought... religion can be a very tiring subject...almost like a dog chasing its tail. you run around in circles and finally when you catch what you were chasing, its the same old thing..your tail, or in this case recycled religious information, Its nice to speculate whats going to happen when we all die...maybe we do get to go to the place we most believe in, If all the gods that everyone believed in existed i dont think they would have time to worry about us. I dont see Allah and Jehovah hanging with Buddah, i dont know about that one, and what exactly is the Abrieviation GOD? Grand Omnipotent Deity? sounds like a generic term. ..when you die thats when you will know the truth, Hope to see some of you in Andelain if i get my heaven.

as far as what the meaning of life is? I really dont think there is one specific reason or meaning , and if there is a meaning its probably different for each person or animal, each person and animal has their own path to follow..the meaning of life is just that..life, maybe the meaning of life is a search for the perfect soul and we are just the corn field being reaped to find it,.. someone worthy of taking a gods place or at least a messenger...like Moses or Jesus (devils advocate speculation of course) , what i want to know is what happens when we die, where does our energy go? and if we do go to heaven i bet alot of you will be pissed if you find out in order to get in you need to have no preconceptions or assumptions of Gods purpose and requirements, in other words the ignorant and the atheists get front row , ahahah wouldnt that be a bag over the head punch in the face?? do animals think of these things? no probably not because intelligence while very useful is a curse, intelligence caused religion , greed , war and a false sense of invulnerability to extinction. the one thing i do agree about when it comes to religion, there is a sense of community... it brings people closer to each other, there is nothing wrong with that.. and that alone is why I am more accepting of non Invasive religions that dont require 10% before taxes on the SS checks of those who need faith and belief that something better is out there. the Hell preachers & Theives are the ones who have a parking spot and corner office set aside for them in hell if there is such a place,

and thats the meaning of life :D or my interpretation of it. :D and things to avoid while living it. :P
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Post by rusmeister »

Hello, Lord Mhoram!

My objection is to the confines of the scientific method, for the very reason that I agree with Prebe:
In fact I resent that science is often used by religions as a tool to make believers more sure in their faith, because the logic always fall apart when scrutinized.
I would also add that scientific theories frequently meet the same fate as said logic. Theories come and go, to be replaced by something we hope is more exact. If science is the basis of your faith, then it, too, is on shifting quicksand.

I agree completely that you can study human religion - what I deny is that you can determine whther the religion is true or not from said science.

I have been saying that faith and reason are compatible, not identical. My prime objection is to smug assumptions that they aren't compatible. What I've been trying to say, no doubt badly, is that reason can carry me a fair amount of the distance (and in my case actually did) towards Truth, but there comes a point that is decidedly outside of the sphere of science - the act of faith; a conscious choice.

Religion can explain science and hold that it is true. (If God created the world, then the biological laws that scientists discover are the operating principles that He created.)
Science, on the other hand, can explain things about religious behavior, but only from the inside - as Lewis said, the scientist must cease trying to be something examining the phenomenon from without or above (as we can with insects) and realize that he, himself is the subject of the study. He could only take such an impartial stance by ceasing to be a man; ie, it's not possible.

The Christian faith is the light by which I see and understand everything else. Once you begin examining the window you cease to see through the window -and the object of seeing through a window is to see things beyond the window. If you attempt to see through everything you will see nothing. Of course you want a good window - sturdy, well-built and clear. But in the end it is there so you can see other things by it.

(Hopefully, Prebe, it is clear that I am trying to say that the physical world view is explained by the spiritual world view.)

For another Chestertonian gem that lays out how one could rationally (to the degree that it is possible) arrive at such religious conclusions, and has never gone out of print, try the first few chapters of "Orthodoxy" (1908)
www.cse.dmu.ac.uk/~mward/gkc/books/orthodoxy/
If you finish chapter 3, and can't understand or agree with anything, then I give up.
A teaser from the second chapter:
But I think this book may well start where our argument started -- in the neighbourhood of the mad-house. Modern masters of science are much impressed with the need of beginning all inquiry with a fact. The ancient masters of religion were quite equally impressed with that necessity. They began with the fact of sin -- a fact as practical as potatoes. Whether or no man could be washed in miraculous waters, there was no doubt at any rate that he wanted washing. But certain religious leaders in London, not mere materialists, have begun in our day not to deny the highly disputable water, but to deny the indisputable dirt. Certain new theologians dispute original sin, which is the only part of Christian theology which can really be proved. Some followers of the Reverend R. J. Campbell, in their almost too fastidious spirituality, admit divine sinlessness, which they cannot see even in their dreams. But they essentially deny human sin, which they can see in the street. The strongest saints and the strongest sceptics alike took positive evil as the starting-point of their argument. If it be true (as it certainly is) that a man can feel exquisite happiness in skinning a cat, then the religious philosopher can only draw one of two deductions. He must either deny the existence of God, as all atheists do; or he must deny the present union between God and man, as all Christians do. The new theologians seem to think it a highly rationalistic solution to deny the cat.
"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one." Bill Hingest ("That Hideous Strength" by C.S. Lewis)

"These are the days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed except his own." G.K. Chesterton
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Post by Prebe »

Rusmeister wrote:I would also add that scientific theories frequently meet the same fate as said logic. Theories come and go, to be replaced by something we hope is more exact. If science is the basis of your faith, then it, too, is on shifting quicksand.
Scientific theories have been shot down to be sure, and still are albeit with a frequency somewhat smaller now than previously, as the bits we can observe/explain become increasingly smaller. However, when they are shot down, it is usually by highly gifted scientists.

By contrast, attempts to consolidate religion and science (such as theist evolutionism) can be shot down by anyone who holds a BSC. So don't try to make it sound like disproving a scientific theory using science is the same as argumenting against the explanation of mythology by using science. Because it isn't.

If you think I'm on quicksand, why don't you stop placing your belief in any of the numerous advantages that deductive research has bestoved? Such as modern medicine and aeroplanes etc.?

The fundamental difference between the two mindset is, that a scientific mindset presuposes a few natural laws (the effects of which are generally easily observable) that ALL scientists can agree on.
Rus wrote:(Hopefully, Prebe, it is clear that I am trying to say that the physical world view is explained by the spiritual world view.)
Yes, it is clear that you feel it explains it to you. But it doesn't provide a generally acceptable explanation, unless you choose to believe in something that is inherently beyond observation and proof.

Don't forget that if man hadn't been around, with his uniquedly human religion, the laws of nature would still be.

So, no, you don't agree with me ;)
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Post by rusmeister »

I posted this on the other thread, but I'll post it here, too (FMG's essay)
More than a Feeling
Last night found me yelling at the television once again over a panel discussion about “science and religion.” Both sides thought that rational processes can only take us so far in the journey to faith (agreed). After that, people turn to some other resource in order to connect with God (so far so good). What they use is their emotions.

Around my house, that’s when the sputtering starts. Only in the realm of religion is it assumed that every experience is a subjective experience, which means it’s an emotional projection—which means: Look, dear, a lunatic.

But in the real world, experience is just that: an experience. A few months ago I spent two weeks in Turkey. I experienced being in Turkey. When I tell people this, nobody nods kindly and assumes that I had an emotional experience that felt just like being in Turkey. In the real world, experience is expected to correspond to reality. Only when the topic is religion do people assume you’re talking about your feelings.

That little word, “feelings,” contributes to our confusion. We expect it to stretch over two divergent concepts, and don’t notice when we switch from one meaning to the other. This was evident, for example, in the “Star Wars” series. The soon-to-be bad guy, Anakin Skywalker, was warned not to be ruled by his “feelings,” his impulses of anger and vengeance. But the good guy, Luke, was encouraged to put more trust in his “feelings;” in that case, it meant his sense of connection with the Force.

The first kind of “feelings,” that is, emotional reactions, is something we can understand pretty well. We know what it’s like to be elated or furious, generous or spiteful. This kind of “feelings” arises as a response to something we perceive.

But then there’s the process of perception, and, confusingly, we use the word “feelings” here too. We can feel that autumn is coming, by some combination of our physical senses. We feel a change in the mood of a gathering, by a yet more subtle means. We are registering “feelings” all the time, through mind and body and an agile combination that seems to need a name of its own. Though many perceptions flow through us unnoticed, we can learn by discipline to raise them to awareness. Luke was urged to feel the presence of the Force-to gather his scattered senses and focus them on something just under the surface, something he had no prior experience of perceiving. He had to learn to recognize the Force, through concentrated attention. He had to trust his “feelings.”

This isn’t “feelings” in the emotional sense; these feelings aren’t reactions, but perceptions. (Luke may have felt emotional toward the Force, but that was after he felt the Force itself.) This second kind of “feelings” isn’t well-defined. Is it intuition? Is it a sixth sense? Is it new-age woo-woo flakiness?

Part of our problem is that we think people are solely made up of two equal-and-opposite faculties, reason and emotion. Reason is thought to be objective while emotion is subjective. So if God cannot be proven by reason, belief in him must be a private party. It must be an impulse that arises from emotion, powerful but untrustworthy, and applicable to nobody else. This is why religious people are regularly admonished that their beliefs are “true for you, but not for everybody.”

If reason and emotion are all we’ve got inside, there’s no room for that other kind of “feelings.” But in first-millennium Christian spirituality there’s another concept, that of the nous. This Greek word gets translated in our Bibles as “mind,” but there really is no English equivalent. It does not mean merely the rational intellect. The nous is like a radio inside each person that can receive impressions from God. It can receive any kind of impression, from anything; most of the time the nous is just wandering around looking for something to entertain or excite itself. At a minimum, the nous usually still receives impressions from God in the form of conscience. (You know you’re not just talking to yourself, because it’s saying things you don’t want to hear.) After it encounters something, the nous may react with a thought or an emotion, but those are secondary reactions. What comes first is the encounter.

First-millennium Christians understood their task as submitting the whole person to the transforming power of God, beginning with the nous. They spoke of trying to “capture” the mind (nous) and bring it steadily into the presence of God, which was understood as being in the center of the chest, in the “heart.” (“Be transformed by the renewal of your nous,” Romans 12:2.)

This understanding of the nous as the place we have a primary encounter with God gives us an alternative to the forced and limited dichotomy of reason and emotion. In this view, a spiritual experience doesn’t spring from our emotions. It’s a real connection with God. It’s as real as a trip to Turkey. We experience it by means of an interior faculty built into us, by God, for the express purpose of communion with him. We may feel emotions as a result of this communion, and we may develop new thoughts and insights, but the initial encounter is the point.

The continuing mystery to me is why not everyone senses this interior snap of connection with God. It’s as clear to me as daylight. It doesn’t require any “leap of faith.” God’s flowing presence continues steadily, separate from whatever emotions or thoughts I have about it. This is not like assenting to a concept about God, but more like putting your finger in an electric socket. “I am the life,” Jesus said (John 11:25), and everything and every person is shot through with the energy of God, simply due to being alive. He is light, and his presence illuminates us; he is love, and we keep discovering signs of his provision for our care. We can tune in to this presence or we can ignore it and grow numb, but it never wavers; it is always there. It is the force that fills and sustains the universe.

This is true for me and it’s true for you, too, even if you can’t sense it. I have often puzzled about why some people don’t seem to be able to sense this. I hope one day they will. I think I know what that’s like. I was a near-sighted kid, and regularly found myself in situations where my parents would be pointing emphatically at something they wanted me to see, and I would squint and strain and still just not see it. A bird in a tree, for example. I might say “No, I still don’t see it,” or I might fib and say “Oh, I see it now,” just to get it over with. But I never said, “There is no bird.”

Those who can’t see the bird can at least see the birdwatchers. They can perceive that the birdwatchers are united in their conviction that they really are seeing a real bird. They can even perceive that the watchers who call themselves Christian all appear to be seeing the *same* bird, no matter when in history or where in the world you dip into the story. So if you don’t see the bird yet, keep an open mind. Allow that those who say they have had an experience may genuinely have had an experience, even if you can’t understand it. And keep watching the birdwatchers.


[When I sent this essay to my mailing list, I added these notes about further thoughts that arose during the editing process:

The editor asked, What about people who seek God all their lives but never feel his presence? I said I think the longing is a sign that he is already present to them, in the faintest initial way. If you didn’t sense him at all, you’d shrug off the concept and think believers were just crazy. If you didn’t sense him at all, why would you go to church? For the cookies? It makes more sense to sleep in.

But people keep getting up and going, because something inside is urging them forward, seeking him. It’s like walking through the mall and getting a whiff of cinnamon, and suddenly you crave a cinnamon roll. Before that, you weren’t even thinking of a cinnamon roll. The few molecules drifting into your nostrils caused everything to go on alert and say “I want that!”

Likewise, if you are longing for God, you are beginning to experience his presence, and when the presence gets stronger it feels like more of that, along the same line. It *always* feels like longing. It feels like the cinnamon roll is right in front of you, getting closer and closer, so you can hardly stand it. Think of Bernini’s statue of St Teresa in Ecstasy.

What it doesn’t feel like is *empty* longing, loneliness, desolation. You get that sometimes, too. You wake up and find that God has vanished and that’s the saddest feeling in the world. You look everywhere for him. It’s like the woman in the Song of Solomon, going around the city in the night, seeking her beloved. I think somehow this sense of desolation is God’s intention, too. It sharpens the desire to seek him. Sometimes it is due to your own fault, of doing something mean or selfish, and severing your focus on communion with him. The way back is always humility. But sometimes I think he just withdraws so we will run after him. When his presence is near, it carries you; when he withdraws, you have to bend your own will and attention to follow, and that changes you at greater depths.

Those who want to perceive in these analogies a likeness to romantic love are entirely free to do so. I wrote in one of my books (“At the Corner of East and Now”) that religion is not about sex, sex is about religion. Here’s that passage:


God invented sex to teach us something about eternal reality. How could we understand what it’s like for two to become one, union without annihilation? God came up with a human experience that would be universal, common, and enjoyable, and said, “Here, this is what it’s like. This is where you’re going.” Likewise, eating food helps us to understand union in the Eucharist, and parenting teaches us what the Father’s love is like. Sex, eating, parenting, are all good things in themselves, but are also handy object lessons, available to give us ready, simple, intimate analogies for what heavenly reality will be like. In light of this, I think heaven is going to be not so bad.]
www.frederica.com/writings/more-than-a- ... ntry337833

Point is, we Christians are accused of being Anakin, rather than Luke Skywalker.
On a purely side note, we purists howled when they started talking about "midi-chlorians" in the prequel trilogy. I'd say it's the attempt to reduce the faith to science - your chief (and just) complaint.

PS - I didn't mean that we agree on everything.
"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one." Bill Hingest ("That Hideous Strength" by C.S. Lewis)

"These are the days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed except his own." G.K. Chesterton
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