Caer-Caveral's Last Act

[jwaneeta]

To be a lawbreaker is to change the rules; if all LA did was continue upon the path set out by Elena and CC she would be blameless for resurrecting TC, because she wasn't breaking any rules - rather she was just following the new rules Elena and CC created.

Good point! But if she rouses the Worm, it's still roused, no matter who bears responsibility (and I don't doubt it'd be Elena and CC -- they seem to be shouldering a lot of astral blame as it is. )

Do you really think Anele has a chance of becoming a new Forestal? I would absolutely love that. The role of Forestals in preserving beauty/the Land's fate seems to be heavily emphasized in Fatal Revenant, to be sure, much more than in previous books. I hope they come back (either through the transformation of Anele or by some other means), and somehow beauty is preserved somewhere, and it all ends happy, la la la.

Sorry, my inner optimist broke loose.

[Ur Dead]

I really can't see Anele being a Forrestal. His one known ability is to hear stone, not wood. Stone is his friend but wood doesn't do anythig for him.

If a Forrestal is to wood, what "named description" would be a cartaker or a guardian of Stone? A Stonetal?

[jwaneeta]

If a Forrestal is to wood, what "named description" would be a cartaker or a guardian of Stone? A Stonetal?

I remember a while back when RotE came out, people noticed the role of grass in the story and were kicking around the term "lawn-al."

[Guest]

My two cents coming in late to this thread.

The question of being a tool vs being free to act is woven throughout the tapestry of the story as we all know.

WF wrote: "Furthermore, we have seen Dead Kevin destroy Elena, we have seen Dead Elena weild the Staff of Law, we have seen dead zombies piling up before the gates of Revelstone. The Dead were never "unable to act" as far as I can tell"

Someone else in the thread commented, and I agree, that the above examples were the Dead under coersion. TC was not resurrected at the end of WGW. Rather he was as the other Dead, as he said so himself. And yet he did not seem to be under anyone else's influence. Perhaps this confirms one of the consequences of breaking the Law of Life - that it allows the Dead, as suggested by Unfettered One, to act in their own free will?

I like the feel of that, and yet it raises another large question: When TC encounters his Dead that first time in WL, is there someone coercing them to act? CC? CW? This would fit well into the discussion of just how farsighted the Forestals are.

From Rigel: "The main question I have is, why wouldn't raising Hollian rouse the Worm? What is it about killing a Forestal that hides, masks or diminishes that kind of power?" The use of Earthpower does not rouse the Worm...even the ROD didn't do that. It is White Gold that threatens the Fundament of the Earth. White Gold was not used in Hollian's ressurrection.

Off-topic side note: In White Gold Weilder was wrote: "Caer-Caveral made it possible. Hile Troy." An old longing suffused his tone. "That was the 'necessity' he talked about. Why he had to give his life. It was the only way to open that particular door."
Interesting foreshadow into Jeremiah's abilities?

[SkurjMaster]

*luxuriates in a rare day off*

One thing puzzles me, though. If, as I can well believe, Caer-Caveral laid the groundwork for TC's resurrection, why is TC cutting up so rough about it? If Caer-Caveral had a plan, it stands to reason that Covenant could observe it from his Dead, all-seeing perspective. Yet when Linden does her whammy, he show upon the mortal plane wringing his hands and acting all aghast. I get that nothing ever seems to make Covenant happy so that's nothing new, but his reaction is worriesome. Maybe it's neccesary for suspense and cliffhangerness? I dunno.

But if Covenant does comprehend Caer-Caveral's scheme/plan/strategy and sees disaster in it, why doesn't Caer-Caveral? I suppose Thomas Covenant is higher up in the hierarchy of post-Death omniscience, in which case: sucks to be all of them, Elena included. I can just imagine how tense and unpleasant it must have been on the astral plane. There's TC bracing the Arch of Time, and a little way off there's Elena and Caer-Caveral being all Law Breaky and broken, and nobody's on speaking terms with anybody else and it's all so <i>awkward.</i> What a way to spend eternity.

I have a thought regarding this, but it may be way off...

If TC is the Timewarden, is he merely an observer of time, or does he 'exist' along with the Arch at every point of time in the past? If so, maybe the problem is that, in his resurrection, he has been snatched away from gaurding the Arch precisely at the point of Foul's attack on it at the end of WCW.

Yes, that is a little crazy. I like the musings and theories of others better, but I couldn't resist.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

[ I thought of this in another thread, but it seemed better as it's own topic.]

I find that I am thinking about Caer-Caveral all over again. Specifically, he broke the Law of Life, and I'm wondering why.

We all assume it was necessary. Necessary for Covenant to succeed against Lord Foul. And I don't doubt that: Caer-Caveral was far-seeing.

Furthermore, I have assumed that resurrecting Hollian and Anele was not the ultimate purpose. They were used to break the Law. But they were not the reason for wanting it broken. I just don't think that they were important enough to break the Law over, as important as they are.

I had always somehow thought that this act allowed Covenant to beat Foul, the way he did, at the end. That Covenant could not have come back from the Dead and interceded for the Arch unless that Law had been broken.

Covenant says as much.

"Caer-Caveral made it possible. Hile Troy." An old longing suffused his tone. "That was the 'necessity' he talked about. Why he had to give his life. It was the only way to open that particular door. So that Hollian could be brought back. And so that I wouldn't be like the rest of the Dead — unable to act. He broke the Law that would've kept me from opposing Foul. Otherwise I would've been just a spectator."

But . . .

But something is not quite right here.

At the end of Fatal Revenant, Linden resurrects Covenant.

Now I am confused. If Covenant came back from the dead to defeat Foul, then he's already resurrected, has been since WGW. It doesn't make sense to resurrect him again.

But if he wasn't resurrected when he defeated Foul ... if he was still Dead with a big D ... then I don't see why the Law of Life needed to be broken.

Earlier, Covenant said

"I don't have your hands — can't touch that kind of power anymore. I'm not physically alive. And I can be dismissed. I'm like the Dead. They can be invoked — and they can be sent away."

That doesn't sound like he was resurrected. Not in the way Hollian was resurrected in Andelain. In fact, he sounds as Dead as he could be.

Furthermore, we have seen Dead Kevin destroy Elena, we have seen Dead Elena weild the Staff of Law, we have seen dead zombies piling up before the gates of Revelstone. The Dead were never "unable to act" as far as I can tell.

How can one make sense of all of this?

I don't have time to read the whole post right now, but all I can say is that breaking the Law of Death certainly did allow Kevin's shade to interact with Elena. Breaking the Law of Life shouldn't have made a difference to TC's ability to stop LF's action against the Arch.

It only makes sense if you understand that SRD had both Chronicles, second and last, planned out ahead of time, and so he also had TC's resurrection planned out ahead of time, thus breaking the Law of Life.
But as far as TC's shade saying that it needed to be broken for him to prevent LF, then he was just "dead" wrong.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

And now Linden has truly resurrected him. He's crossed over the boundary between life and death completely now.

And that was what Caerroil Wildwood and Caer-Caveral had planned all along.

I was finally able to get back and finish reading this.

Are you trying to account for TC specter's statement to the effect that he couldn't use the ring? I think he could pick up the ring but he wouldn't be able to wield its power; that is par for the course anyway for TC without the venom's influence, but especially after he was dead. He was capable of taking on blast after blast of wild magic, but he was incapable of blasting back at LF with it. (LA then took this example and applied it to healing the Land of the Sunbane; she took the Sunbane into herself, and anyway, there was nothing to attack directly.)

I don't think CC and CW had anything planned far in advance. I don't understand your theory or their role in it. CW simply saw a staff without runes and so he gave it some, although I think he also perceived that aiding LA, the staff's wielder, would be beneficial in some way. And CC sacrificed himself for the sake of the Land, to give it a new beginning after the Sunbane. These are precursors plot-wise but not by any far-reaching plan held tacitly by the characters concerning TC. CW didn't know anything about TC 10,000 years ago, and CC wasn't dead at the time he sacrificed himself.

[wayfriend]

Are you trying to account for TC specter's statement to the effect that he couldn't use the ring?

No, I was trying to account for why TC said that CC "made it possible" for him to defeat Foul. For what CC did was make resurrection possible - and TC was not actually resurrected. Why did CC go so far when TC didn't use it?

I don't think CC and CW had anything planned far in advance. I don't understand your theory or their role in it.

My theory starts from Linden's statement that CW put the runes on the Staff "for this" -- for resurrecting Covenant. That's what they were for.

Now instinctively she understood the runes with which Caerroil Wildwood had elaborated her Staff. They were for this.

So if CW put resurrection runes on 10,000 years before, and then he recruited CC 7,000 years before, and then CC made resurrection possible 3,500 years before by breaking the Law of Life, then it speaks to me of a plan. Despite the years in between, CW and CC seem to be working towards the same thing.

And since TC wasn't actually resurrected at the end of WGW, then perhaps the end of FR represents their real plan.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Are you trying to account for TC specter's statement to the effect that he couldn't use the ring?

No, I was trying to account for why TC said that CC "made it possible" for him to defeat Foul. For what CC did was make resurrection possible - and TC was not actually resurrected. Why did CC go so far when TC didn't use it?

You mean this: ""Caer-Caveral made it possible. Hile Troy. That was the 'necessity' he talked about. Why he had to give his life. It was the only way to open that particular door. So that Hollian could be brought back.
And so that I wouldn't be like the rest of the Dead—unable
to act. He broke the Law that would've kept me from opposing Foul. Otherwise I would've been just a spectator."

Dead Kevin was certainly able to act against Elena. Was it because he was commanded by the Illearth Stone? Dead Elena was able to wield the Staff of Law and almost killed TC, but she was also commanded by the Stone.

I don't think CC and CW had anything planned far in advance. I don't understand your theory or their role in it.

My theory starts from Linden's statement that CW put the runes on the Staff "for this" -- for resurrecting Covenant. That's what they were for.

Now instinctively she understood the runes with which Caerroil Wildwood had elaborated her Staff. They were for this.

So if CW put resurrection runes on 10,000 years before, and then he recruited CC 7,000 years before, and then CC made resurrection possible 3,500 years before by breaking the Law of Life, then it speaks to me of a plan. Despite the years in between, CW and CC seem to be working towards the same thing.

And since TC wasn't actually resurrected at the end of WGW, then perhaps the end of FR represents their real plan.

Then the quote from TC above doesn't make sense.

I'm not saying you're wrong about CW and CC. But this plot-line is incoherent to me. The new Staff of Living Law, which Linden herself breathed life into, needed no runes. And even if it is true that CW planned things out 10,000 years in advance, it lacks credibility. So no amount of explaining will help matters. I just have to have faith in SRD's ability to make the long wait between books worthwhile.