Late to the party my thoughts.

[Hellbinder]

I just finished the book.

I started out excited but became more and more frustrated with the book with virtually every page. Most of you here are talking about the narrative and how great the book was and totally ignoring the real issues here.

Like George Lucas Donaldson has totally corrupted the history of his own saga.

There are.

1. Plot Holes
2. Forced actions of the main character that make no sense
3. Ultimate corruption of the history of the story
4. Introduction of a new race that accomplishes nothing but is forced into the story anyway.

There is a lot more but it would take me pages and pages to go into. There is simply no way around the damage done by having these characters go back in time and meet BH. There is no way to explain how the acts done by LA in that time would not completely undo the arch of time.

"Because the author said so"

is simply not an acceptable answer unless you are a mind numb robot.

There is no way to explain why BH had no understanding of earth power or law or anything and yet have formed the staff, let alone get to the one tree, or survive encounters with races like the Elohim or anything else without the help of the theomach. Yet that was never part of any prior history. Further its plainly stated by the characters in this book that Theomach inserted himself and changed history. Thus in one fell swoop completely destroying the structure of the narrative.

The only way to explain this away is to come to

A.
The conclusion that this is the way things have ALWAYS happened from the beginning and that the entire arch of time is a completed history from end to begging and that the creatures of power in the book are simply mistaken. Except that they can apparently travel through or at least view history and future events.

B.
This is simply leading up to the destruction of time anyway and the characters of power in the book dont realize that the damage was already done and this end was inevitable. Because her trip ti the past was catastrophic from the beginning. At which point they are all to blame for not warning her.

C.
Still doesn’t explain at all how BH could have accomplished anything with his utter lack of knowledge.

So your stuck with either throwing your brain out the window or reading every page with the knowledge that the whole story has become pointless.

This has never happened in the previous series. imo there is no reason to have done this.

Throughout the book LA makes choice after choice in the face of sound advice that simply makes no sense. Especially in the last half of the book. She has to have a "manufactured" "Stone heart" Based on her encounter with the croyel and RC. I saw no reason for her based on her entire history and what she had previously seen and leaned to become like this. Thus you have the character being forced to go totally against type again because of the desired outcome of the author in spite of the logical flaws.

I wish i could remember it all. I was literally getting angry every few pages.

But alas, despite all this i like some of the characters and the ending made me at least hope that we could actually get back to "The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant" in the last two books and get away from "The Chronicles of Linden Avery".

So i am willing to throw my brain out the window and keep going. Evern though this series in my mind has put a blemish on the greatness of the first two series.

[Unfettered One]

I have to admit, I felt a little bit like that after the first read. I set it aside, and I'm halfway through my second read, and I feel differently. I'm seeing lots of things I didn't notice before (because I didn't think they were important) that make LA's actions make more sense.

Give it some time.

[dlbpharmd]

I think the introduction of the Insequent into the history of the Land will be a mistake that SRD will come to regret.

[Ur Dead]

I felt tha way when TWL came out..
How DARE SRD to destroy the Land and my story as I knew it..


Then I read the other books as they came out.

[dlbpharmd]

TWL made sense though, it was a natural progression of a story. There were no hints of continuity errors. Instead, we had a brilliant creation (the Sunbane) and the story focused on Covenant as it should.

[Hellbinder]

On a posotive note.

I think that TC absolutely had to be resurected. Its His family thats creating so much havock he should be the one who has to deal with it.

Why should LA have to deal witb Roger and Joan?

It y mind that is a mess that only TC can deal with. This makes me a little excited for the next book to see if thats the direction the story takes.

[Hellbinder]

A further thought i have had regarding the end of the book.

"You are the only one who can even make the attempt"

Obviously Lindedn is the only one who could wield Wild magic and Law and use the krill to resurect TC. She is litterally the only one who could do it.

Given the other clues of "I cant help you if you dont find me" littered about the text and it seems pretty obvious that TC wanted and expected her to try to resurect him.

What else could the voice have been talking about?

[shadowbinding shoe]

I thought he just wanted to talk to her. Like the dead that spoke to Thomas Covenant in the second series. He seemed shocked to me that she actually went all the way through and resurrected him.

Obviously she wasn't content to have him in the spirit, she wanted him in the flesh.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Oh, and I too have problems with the issues you raised Hellbinder.

I think what we are supposed to think about Linden's trip to the past is that the changes she and her friends made were local (timewise) and would have dissipated into the background by the time Covenant reaches the Land for the first time. The breaking of Melenkurion is an example for this. The earthquake was supposed to happen anyway. Likewise if we stretch it a little with the fight between Garroting deep and the Viles.

But the forming of the staff of Law and the existence of the Unfettered (Insequent wannabes) I can't see happening without the Theomach's intervention.

Once you accept the possibility of time-travel to the past I can't see why Lord Foul wouldn't create time paradoxes and break the arch already. Maybe Roger and the croyel were afraid they'll die in the attempt if they didn't do it in Melenkurion but surely Foul could find someone who'd be stupid enough to do it.

And the Insequent in general annoy me too. The Elohim seen in 'the One Tree' made sense in the scheme of things (and they were mentioned in the first chronicles despite being much farther from the Land than the Insequent-land.) these guys don't. Now we can have a special dude fit for every situation. After all, each Insequent is unique...

[Hellbinder]

Exactly they are imo a total cop out plot hack to take care of issues raised by al this mucking around with time.

If these guys exsisted prior to this would they not be key targets of lord foul for centuries? They can totally travel through time. They are mortal, they "learn things" through study etc.

All foul would have to do is get ahold of one when they were "young" and directly or indirectly taint them to his purpose. Thus totally screwing time out of exsistence.

Which brings me to another point.

It makes no sense that i can see why the Elohim would not take out foul themselves. They know he has been trying to break the arch of time for millenia. They should have mass detroyed him or imprisioned him somewhere long ago and be done with it.

It is sad but true, but this series hs needlessly introduced far to many story corrupting plot holes and not enough stability to stand on its own.

[Aleksandr]

Re: Further its plainly stated by the characters in this book that Theomach inserted himself and changed history.

Not only do the characters not state it, Donaldson in the GI flat out denies that the Theomach did any time traveling whatsoever. He was always there. I am and remain puzzled as always why people take on so over this. We had only very sketchy details about Berek's life. There was plenty of room to fill that in with all sorts of things. Berek could have had another son, or a daughter we never knew about. His wife could have been someone of great significance. He could have interacted with the Elohim. The Ramen and Ranyhyn may have been involved in his tale. Or the Forestals. Instead he gets a tutorial figure in the Themoach. I don't see why that disturbs so many people: Frodo had his Gandalf and Arthur his Merlin. This is a common fantasy archetype with deep and respectable roots. Moreover the Theomach is not going to be around with Berek for long. He wasn't there when Berek had his epiphany on Mt Thunder; he won't be there for Berek's long reign as High Lord. Far, far more is being made of this than the story, or simple logic, require.

Re: There were no hints of continuity errors.

The Elohim (granted in the One Tree, not TWL) turned out to be radically different beings than the ones Foamfollower brifely described. Instead of being "sylvan faeries, a laughing people" (rather in the mode of Tolkien Elves) they turned out to be godlike beings of incarnate Earthpower. That's a pretty massive break, which we all accepted.
Moreover if you read the 2nd chronicles there are a number of unanswered contradictions in the behavior of the Elohim, the Ur-Viles and Vain that we were willing to gloss over because we were so glad to have the Sunbane healed. I'm still hoping we get some of those answers.

[Mr. Broken]

I guess Im not ready to start second guessing the author on this story quite yet, when I first started the Second Chronicles I hated everything, and then Vain slaughtered Stonemight Woodhelven, and Covenant was helpless to stop him, and damn it Im hooked again. When I finish the Last Dark, then Ill judge it.

[MsMary]

I think the introduction of the Insequent into the history of the Land will be a mistake that SRD will come to regret.

Why do you think that?

[MsMary]

Throughout the book LA makes choice after choice in the face of sound advice that simply makes no sense. Especially in the last half of the book. She has to have a "manufactured" "Stone heart" Based on her encounter with the croyel and RC. I saw no reason for her based on her entire history and what she had previously seen and leaned to become like this. Thus you have the character being forced to go totally against type again because of the desired outcome of the author in spite of the logical flaws.

Haha. Have you read this rant about Linden Avery?

[Hellbinder]

Further its plainly stated by the characters in this book that Theomach inserted himself and changed history.

Not only do the characters not state it, Donaldson in the GI flat out denies that the Theomach did any time traveling whatsoever. He was always there. I am and remain puzzled as always why people take on so over this. We had only very sketchy details about Berek's life. There was plenty of room to fill that in with all sorts of things. Berek could have had another son, or a daughter we never knew about. His wife could have been someone of great significance. He could have interacted with the Elohim. The Ramen and Ranyhyn may have been involved in his tale. Or the Forestals. Instead he gets a tutorial figure in the Themoach. I don't see why that disturbs so many people: Frodo had his Gandalf and Arthur his Merlin. This is a common fantasy archetype with deep and respectable roots. Moreover the Theomach is not going to be around with Berek for long. He wasn't there when Berek had his epiphany on Mt Thunder; he won't be there for Berek's long reign as High Lord. Far, far more is being made of this than the story, or simple logic, require.

Donaldson can say what he wants publically.

The theomach was aware enough of time to stop roger from the future wasnt he? He pulled him right out of a time jump some 500 years off the mark. He was already aware of future events which can be demonstrated in multiple ways.

Thus he "inserted himself" into the story and changed history which is in FACT talked bout in the book. I know i just finished it.

Also, you yourself make factual errors. There were no Ranyhyn in that time it is clearly stated in the book. They had not reached the land yet and would not for quite some time. This is just one example.

Of course you are amazed why people are freaked out on this when you as far as i can tell dont pay close enough attention to the story and gloss stuff over yourself.

[Seareach]

I think the introduction of the Insequent into the history of the Land will be a mistake that SRD will come to regret.

Why do you think that?

Yeah, I'd be interested to know too.

Interesting posts Hellbinder, although I don't necessarily agree with you.

But, talking about the Insequent: I actually have no problem with a race that suddenly pops up from no where in the Land, a race that until this time hasn't really been known. The Earth (not the Land, but the Earth) is a large place. The Land is but a small little blip on the radar. I see no reason why the Insequent haven't been known in the Land until now. [Of course, this doesn't take into consideration that they were known: Kenaustin Ardenol being an example]. Perhaps they have a good reason for staying away from the Land up until now?

[Unfettered One]

Also, you yourself make factual errors. There were no Ranyhyn in that time it is clearly stated in the book. They had not reached the land yet and would not for quite some time. This is just one example.

Actually, I just re-read that part. Roger pretty much confirms in the showdown that the Ranyhyn thing was a lie, because the Ranyhyn would have revealed him.

Dude, give it some time, and then re-read the book. If you still feel the same way after that, then fine. There's really no reason to flame people like you're doing.

[Usivius]

I think a lot of assumptions are being made with still 2 books to go. We can say that "X" is a problem, and it may very well seem that way at this point, but there is still half the story to go.

I read, enjoy and wait impatiently...

[sweetbread]

All foul would have to do is get ahold of one when they were "young" and directly or indirectly taint them to his purpose. Thus totally screwing time out of exsistence.

Maybe that was the Theomach?? Without introducing lore to Berek, without giving the Seven Words to Linden, without the Staff of Law, there never would have been any Lords, never would have been any opposition to Lord Foul, and never would have been a summons for Covenant.

So by all his actions, the Theomach is really, in fact, setting the stage for White Gold to enter the land, millennia later, and for Linden to acquire a massive amount of power, enough power to break the Arch of Time...

Setting up ill circumstances in the guise of good actions is certainly Lord Foul's modus opperandum... as is waiting patiently for thousands and thousands of years for the fruits of his mischief to come to bear....

[Hellbinder]

All foul would have to do is get ahold of one when they were "young" and directly or indirectly taint them to his purpose. Thus totally screwing time out of exsistence.

Maybe that was the Theomach?? Without introducing lore to Berek, without giving the Seven Words to Linden, without the Staff of Law, there never would have been any Lords, never would have been any opposition to Lord Foul, and never would have been a summons for Covenant.

So by all his actions, the Theomach is really, in fact, setting the stage for White Gold to enter the land, millennia later, and for Linden to acquire a massive amount of power, enough power to break the Arch of Time...

Setting up ill circumstances in the guise of good actions is certainly Lord Foul's modus opperandum... as is waiting patiently for thousands and thousands of years for the fruits of his mischief to come to bear....

I like your theory

Except that SRD states that the Theomach entered in a way that accompished the same things to happen only in a slightly different way. However all the events still happened on their own.