The Joan appreciation thread

[shadowbinding shoe]

So... Is Joan such a bad person? Sure she run off with Roger when she heard that her hubby was a leper but according to the medicinal lore we get in the books, she was right and young children like Roger that were in long-term close contact with infected people were at high risk. Having Roger growing up with his pops on Haven farm was an invitation for disaster.

So Roger had to be separated from his father and his mother had to be with him to take care of him. No matter how miserable, Rich&Famous Thomas Covenant was, he was never as needy as helpless little baby Roger.

Now that we got that out of our whipping bag, let's discuss the divorce. While people give Joan some slack about the separation and Roger, the divorce is unanimously regarded as pure spite and pettiness. But have we actually looked at this from her perspective?

We've seen how horrible the social stigma Thomas suffers from his neighbors is. But what about the social stigma his wife gets because of it? Thomas may be feared because he carries such a disgusting, demeaning disease but he isn't blamed for getting it. At worst it's deemed to be a punishment from God. Joan on the other hand is not so lucky. She didn't just catch it, she courted it and loved it and chose to live with it. Any time someone hears that she was married to that leper they'd start imagining how she was 'intimate' with his leprosy, and got leper-germs all over (and in) her. Roger's existence is proof positive of that. So unlike Thomas who's just a victim, they'd accuse her of wanting it. She's not just been infected somehow, she must have liked it. She became outcast for something that wasn't even about her.

And it's not just her that suffers. It's her whole family. How would Roger grow up when everybody calls his mother a disgusting pervert? The divorce was an unsuccessful attempt to distance herself from all of that but I don't think it worked. While Thomas was off enjoying himself with his nurse (Linden) Joan could have no one. No one that knew about her past (and that probably includes everyone she meets, seeing as her husband is such a famous writer and the communities they live in are so small) would come in touching distance with her. Her straights were worse off than those of her ex-husband.

As the Covenants like to say, 'It's not that easy'

[Mr. Broken]

Joan is the classic victim of circumstance, like Helen of Troy. She is learning the cost of choices made out of despair.

[Linna Heartbooger]

Well, in thinking about Joan, and various other things (including the faults of Lena and Elena, and some of the struggles of Linden; and some of my own struggles), I realized that I think there is a very strong drive in "feminine nature" to be a good mother and a good wife.

Joan had a situation that appeared to be a choice to be either "a good wife" or "a good mother," and yes, making a choice to continue to personally care for and be connected to Covenant would have been costly.

Even so, I believe her decision was totally unacceptable and wrong.

The thing that SRD is so skilled at is showing us is that WE are not necessarily better than these "terrible" people. I have certainly seen in myself the capacity for such awful things.

[Blackhawk]

So... Is Joan such a bad person? Sure she run off with Roger when she heard that her hubby was a leper but according to the medicinal lore we get in the books, she was right and young children like Roger that were in long-term close contact with infected people were at high risk. Having Roger growing up with his pops on Haven farm was an invitation for disaster.

So Roger had to be separated from his father and his mother had to be with him to take care of him. No matter how miserable, Rich&Famous Thomas Covenant was, he was never as needy as helpless little baby Roger.

Now that we got that out of our whipping bag, let's discuss the divorce. While people give Joan some slack about the separation and Roger, the divorce is unanimously regarded as pure spite and pettiness. But have we actually looked at this from her perspective?

We've seen how horrible the social stigma Thomas suffers from his neighbors is. But what about the social stigma his wife gets because of it? Thomas may be feared because he carries such a disgusting, demeaning disease but he isn't blamed for getting it. At worst it's deemed to be a punishment from God. Joan on the other hand is not so lucky. She didn't just catch it, she courted it and loved it and chose to live with it. Any time someone hears that she was married to that leper they'd start imagining how she was 'intimate' with his leprosy, and got leper-germs all over (and in) her. Roger's existence is proof positive of that. So unlike Thomas who's just a victim, they'd accuse her of wanting it. She's not just been infected somehow, she must have liked it. She became outcast for something that wasn't even about her.

And it's not just her that suffers. It's her whole family. How would Roger grow up when everybody calls his mother a disgusting pervert? The divorce was an unsuccessful attempt to distance herself from all of that but I don't think it worked. While Thomas was off enjoying himself with his nurse (Linden) Joan could have no one. No one that knew about her past (and that probably includes everyone she meets, seeing as her husband is such a famous writer and the communities they live in are so small) would come in touching distance with her. Her straights were worse off than those of her ex-husband.

As the Covenants like to say, 'It's not that easy'

Joan probably would have been fine and not one person would have recognised her if she had moved to a Ranch and tried her hand at breaking/seducing horses or pretty much anywhere else, I would recognise Stephen R Donaldson in a heartbeat if i saw him but i would never in a million years remember his wife or Girlfriend if i saw them walking down the street or applying for a job, though i dont know if it would matter where she went , the further the worse off her feet would be after foul made her hoof it back to TC, ..... she sure did learn the cost of making important choices out of despair and fear too as Mr. Broken said. It also opened her up as a tool for Foul to manipulate just like the ravers were able to manipulate Linden until she/Linden came into her own reckoning, i havent read FR yet so i still have to see what Joans other than the obvious role is. so my current thought about Joan is "its not that easy" but you dont leave someone because they are sick especially when they have no blame in what happened, While looking at the rock gardens in IEW TC told everyone the story of the lady who had leprosy and lost her family job and deteriorated until the only thing she had left was her smile and TC wanted to tear her husbands head off for leaving her, even though he cant blame Joan for leaving him.... i have to give Joan a two thumbs down on this one...one thumb for Backing out when it got tough..and the other thumb for not using the backbone that was given her when it was needed.

[deer of the dawn]

Who made us judge and jury?? Joan was HUMAN. She made what seemed like the right choice at the time.

"In those days... everyone did what was right in his own eyes." Judges 21:25

"To protect Roger" might have included not only the possibility of Roger contracting Hansen's disease himself, but also the possibility of local child welfare officials breaking the door down to take him away; of his ostracization as he grew up; of the inevitable issues his parents would face as Thomas' disease progressed. (How could Joan have known that Hansen's/leprosy would be controllable in just a few years.)

I will not be the one to cast the first stone (although it seems that's already been done). People divorce for no particular reason, and while it doesn't make it right, how can we be so harsh with Joan? Anyone here walked a mile in her shoes?

Joan's own conflict is indicated by her attempted phone call to Covenant (cut short by being sucked into the Land, most inconveniently). I hate divorce and think that most of the time it is a selfish and short-sighted decision, but given Joan's situation I'm not sure I could have made a wiser choice. It was weak to leave her husband in favor of a child, yes, but let's be honest- how many of us could abandon a child in favor of a spouse with a degenerative, debilitating disease, if you had to make the choice between them? And if you did the right thing, would it be an easy road??

Joan was in a "damned if I do, damned if I don't" situation. Let's have a little compassion.

[Linna Heartbooger]

Who made us judge and jury??

FYI, though I personally agree w/ that assumption, a number of ppl on these boards do not. (They're very interesting to debate with sometimes though!)

"To protect Roger" might have included not only the possibility of Roger contracting Hansen's disease himself, but also the possibility of local child welfare officials breaking the door down to take him away; of his ostracization as he grew up; of the inevitable issues his parents would face as Thomas' disease progressed. (How could Joan have known that Hansen's/leprosy would be controllable in just a few years.)

See, I'm glad you brought some life to this conversation. I actually had been thinking... there COULD HAVE BEEN the option of maintaining a personal relationship with TC over the phone. The only time Joan calls him is because of her own desperate needs. Though, as you noted... yes, it's because of her own costly, painful inner conflict.

I know, I know... "She didn't think of the option." She was probably totally blind to it.

Of course, such a relationship could not have been maintained on Joan's terms alone - she would not be the only one in control. And it would have been painful... because there would have been a measure of necessary emotional distance coming from both parties because of the physical separation. However, it would not have left TC utterly bereft and abandoned.

I hate divorce and think that most of the time it is a selfish and short-sighted decision...

So if a friend's marriage is moving towards divorce... don't you think that you would - insofar as the friend was capable of listening to you, and you had wise counsel - try to persuade and encourage that person to escape from divorce? Or bring them to someone else who was wiser than you? I know I would have the idea in my mind that "in this case, divorcing would probably be a wrong and hurtful choice for both parties, so I want to seek to help prevent it."

That said, you do bring up a good point that you, or I, cannot know everything about a person's situation - we do not know the beginning and the end. I guess that's a good correction to temper my zeal.

[Blackhawk]

Stephen R Donaldson made us Judge Jury And executioner..well..he saved that latter for himself.

i have very little tolerance for people who cut and run when things get tough... if thats how marriage really is they should cut the "until death do you part" and the "in sickness and health" sections from the vows, and they changed the "love honor and OBEY" part already. it seems like something in the 60s or 70s took the seriousness out of marriage and turned it into a 5 year lease with an option to renew with the "lets renew our vows", BS. trying to stick to the subject...
Joan is getting a ride on the karma camel for now. lets see if she redeems herself in the last chronicles (and I do think she needs redeeming) though the creator may have needed her to do exactly as she did or TC wouldnt have known the pain and solitary lifestyle he had become accustomed to.. a necessity for him to be able to accomplish in the end what was needed. someone who has lived a life without the tragedies of abandonment, illness, and being outcast has no idea how to deal with or what despair even is.

[Linna Heartbooger]

i have very little tolerance for people who cut and run when things get tough... if thats how marriage really is they should cut the "until death do you part" and the "in sickness and health" sections from the vows, and they changed the "love honor and OBEY" part already. it seems like something in the 60s or 70s took the seriousness out of marriage and turned it into a 5 year lease with an option to renew with the "lets renew our vows", BS. trying to stick to the subject...

You make a keen point, and I gotta agree with alot of your analysis... I think it's a pretty discouraging situation. But then there's always the fact that both spouses are still people. That's the part that we tend to forget when we tend towards judgement. (and I know you just saw me "tending towards judgement" in my earlier post.)

though the creator may have needed her to do exactly as she did or TC wouldnt have known the pain and solitary lifestyle he had become accustomed to.. a necessity for him to be able to accomplish in the end what was needed. someone who has lived a life without the tragedies of abandonment, illness, and being outcast has no idea how to deal with or what despair even is.

See, there's something to what you're saying. But I disagree with part of that notion... at least the notion that the Creator invariably needed the person of TC specifically exactly. I think there's enough complex, wounded people out in the world that, well... yeah. If Joan didn't make TC who he was by harming him, someone else would've shaped another for the job by harming that person.

[deer of the dawn]

So if a friend's marriage is moving towards divorce... don't you think that you would - insofar as the friend was capable of listening to you, and you had wise counsel - try to persuade and encourage that person to escape from divorce?

If they wanted my advice (and in my experience most people already have their minds made up and only come looking for confirmation) I would tell them, look, your marriage came about in steps, not overnight; so there are steps you can take before just cutting it off. I think that a lot of people, in order to maintain an illusion of control over circumstances, commit too quickly to divorce. I've never known a divorced person who said "I'm so glad I got divorced". Most of them express regret at some point, especially that they should have been more patient. Of course I also know people for whom divorce has been the only way out of an unliveable situation.

Was there a "liveable" option for Joan? Yes, I think so. But there was no easy road for her. Still...

i have very little tolerance for people who cut and run when things get tough... if thats how marriage really is they should cut the "until death do you part" and the "in sickness and health" sections from the vows, and they changed the "love honor and OBEY" part already. it seems like something in the 60s or 70s took the seriousness out of marriage and turned it into a 5 year lease with an option to renew with the "lets renew our vows", BS. trying to stick to the subject...

Well said, Blackhawk!! You rocked that topic.

[Blackhawk]

i have very little tolerance for people who cut and run when things get tough... if thats how marriage really is they should cut the "until death do you part" and the "in sickness and health" sections from the vows, and they changed the "love honor and OBEY" part already. it seems like something in the 60s or 70s took the seriousness out of marriage and turned it into a 5 year lease with an option to renew with the "lets renew our vows", BS. trying to stick to the subject...

You make a keen point, and I gotta agree with alot of your analysis... I think it's a pretty discouraging situation. But then there's always the fact that both spouses are still people. That's the part that we tend to forget when we tend towards judgement. (and I know you just saw me "tending towards judgement" in my earlier post.)

though the creator may have needed her to do exactly as she did or TC wouldnt have known the pain and solitary lifestyle he had become accustomed to.. a necessity for him to be able to accomplish in the end what was needed. someone who has lived a life without the tragedies of abandonment, illness, and being outcast has no idea how to deal with or what despair even is.

See, there's something to what you're saying. But I disagree with part of that notion... at least the notion that the Creator invariably needed the person of TC specifically exactly. I think there's enough complex, wounded people out in the world that, well... yeah. If Joan didn't make TC who he was by harming him, someone else would've shaped another for the job by harming that person.

very true...but that other person may have had a plain old yellow gold ring or maybe their white gold was only 14k so they lost out by default.

[Revan]

Like Doctor Brenford, I think that Joan did what she did was more out of fear at what leprosy would do to Covenant, than protecting her son. Not that that wasn't a concern, but the emotional trauma of finding out her husband had leprosy took place as the primary concern in her mind, and she had to get away.

She was ruled by fear, which caused her utter failures in both spirit, wife and mother. She was just a normal woman who made mistakes and paid high costs for them, it saddening, and I understand why she choose as she did; but on the whole; she failed.

[iQuestor]

To me its ironic that a woman who broke horses through the gentleness , patience, and strength of character rather than just bending them to her will was lacking these qualities so much in her personal life.

She was very one dimensional in the first chrons, I didnt think SRD developed her enough for me to care about her and believe TC cared about her. I think he should have because now her current role in the stories would have been more satisfying, more beleivable.

in hindsight, I think he should have written more about them together then. But of course, hindsight is always 20/20.

[Rocksister]

Joan called Covenant before his second translation to the Land. Matter of fact, her call is what brought about the injury that opened to door to the translation. My thinking is that she realized how horrible it was what she did to TC (taking their son and leaving him, then divorcing him) over something he had no control over (yea, he could have paid more attention, but he'd still have the disease) and wanted to talk to him. Remember it was well past midnight when she called. So she had been suffering emotionally through all of this, too. Man, I still believe Foul was in it to start with. Maybe he even gave TC the leprosy, so Joan would leave him (with a second white gold ring) and cause his mental and emotional state, so that he would be beaten down and have nothing to live for when he decided to let Drool call him. I think Joan will land up being the key character in this whole series once it's over with. Just my two cents. But back to the divorce and such. I'm a mother myself, and we do what we think we should to protect our kids. We don't think about it long-term, we immediately start making arrangements, or whatever, to get the kids out of the situation, we'll deal with later when later gets here. Joan did this; she saw a potentially harmful situation for Roger and she didn't wait to get him out of it. As soon as she perceived the danger, she grabbed him up and left and stayed out of TC's presence (divorce by proxy, remember, she didn't even show up for it). I cannot demean Joan for what she did, I have to honestly say I would have done it, too. TC was an adult; he had resources to care for himself one way or the other. Roger was an infant; he depended 100% on adults for everything in his life. Joan had no choice is what I am saying. Hard as it was to leave Tom, she had no choice. She was doing what every single living creature would do when faced with her offspring being in danger. I don't believe for a second that all this happened and THEN TC was brought into the picture. I believe it happened so he would be READY. The plans were laid well in advance of all of this, I just have a feeling. SRD would laugh at me, I am sure, but it just is way too neat for me. Okay, hit me with your best shot.

[iQuestor]

RockSis -- I agree she had to leave him, and agree, Moms do what that have to for their kids -- get them safe, then deal with the fallout.

I dont think Foul gave TC leprosy, I think the leprosy and what it did to TC was why the Creator chose him for the task.

I can't demean Joan for leaving Covenant, I just think her character wasnt developed well enough in the first chrons.

[wayfriend]

The argument that Joan had to protect herself and her children is entirely valid.

The argument that Joan loved Thomas and made a vow is also entirely valid.

Dilemma.

But if Donaldson tells us anything, it's that the answer to these kinds of decisions is to be true to yourself and what you believe. That's always the "right" answer to such dilemmas. Because that's the answer you can live with, without regrets.

Joan made the wrong choice. She was ruled by fear, and fear made the choice, and the choice was not the "right" one in that sense. The resulting anguish and self-hatred was the result - she could not live with it, she was drowning in regret.

Someone else, in the same position, could have made the same choice, and have turned out fine. But not Joan. In the end, she found that she believed in Thomas and love and vows more than she believed in safety, even if she didn't "know it". That's a good thing. But it wasn't clear enough soon enough to save her.

[Rocksister]

I agree 100% wayfriend. In looking at it from my own perspective as a mom, I would have done what she did. Granted, I would also have suffered the aftereffects as she did, and lived with massive guilt and pangs of remorse beyond which my petty heart could bear. Sorry, couldn't resist there. So Joan, in calling TC, thus instigating his next trip to the Land, was reaching out to him for forgiveness and understanding, just as I might have done. I have always wondered what she would have said to him had he not hit his head and blacked out. As far as Foul giving TC the leprosy, that was a random thought that came to my mind when I read "Joan preferred white gold." TC's life seemed to be greatly affected by choices not his own. He's a hero in the Land, but here he didn't have much, uh, machismo. And did they really ever say HOW he contacted the leprosy? Exactly?

[High Lord Tolkien]

I just think her character wasnt developed well enough in the first chrons.

Donaldson always says that he only uses what he needs for a story.
Joan didn't keep in touch because TC had to be devastated when he was translated back to the Land before he could talk to her after all that time.
If he knew he could just call her next week there would have been no real conflict.

Plus if Joan had reacted properly she wouldn't have been a mess by the 2nd Chronicles and Roger wouldn't be a total

Spoiler

psychopath

.

[Lord Robertus]

I dont think Foul gave TC leprosy, I think the leprosy and what it did to TC was why the Creator chose him for the task.

Was that the reason though? The Second Chronicles to me at least, emply a close relationship between Foul and Covenant. Two sides of the same coin and all.

[wayfriend]

I dont think Foul gave TC leprosy, I think the leprosy and what it did to TC was why the Creator chose him for the task.

Was that the reason though?

In a hairy coconut of a nutshell: The Creator could trust Covenant with the near-inifinite power of wild magic, because Covenant's leprosy taught him to distrust power on moral grounds.

The Second Chronicles to me at least, emply a close relationship between Foul and Covenant. Two sides of the same coin and all.

Yes. Once Covenant was chosen, Foul had no choice but to bring him back.

You may be wondering, if Foul and Covenant are two sides of the same coin, how can we say that the Creator chose Covenant? Wasn't he chosen because he was Foul's other side?

Therein lies one of the key central elements of this series of series.

IMHO, Covenant and Foul did not start out as One. However, the Creators choice made them into enemies that are, as we say, tied together at the waist. The Second Chronicles made them into brothers. The final Chronicles will make them truly One. It's a progression, and that means it wasn't there from the start. The Creator still had a choice.

[sherlock_525]

Way to go Rocksister!!! Love hearing about mothers who own up to the responablity of being parents!! OH YEAH! Almost forgot! Good post everybody, great thread!