We're starting the FR dissection and I wanted to ask a question.
The Haruchai say Covenant (and Jeremiah) being closed to their health-sense is not something new. That Covenant always was closed to the people of the Land.
But I recall various instances where Covenant's physical condition is noted by his friends in the Land or Linden in the second chronicles. Mhoram senses that Covenant is close to death when he summons him. Linden is always noting the effect the venom has on him. Are the Haruchai a special case?
Covenant immunity to health-sense probing
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The people of the Land could see TC's leprosy but had nothing to relate it to.
They could see when he was sick and that Hurtloam had healed him but he was still "closed" to them.
"closed", in my opinion, meant more like seeing someone in their totality.
Who he truly was, looking at TC's soul if you will.
They had no way to judge what type of person TC was.
They could see when he was sick and that Hurtloam had healed him but he was still "closed" to them.
"closed", in my opinion, meant more like seeing someone in their totality.
Who he truly was, looking at TC's soul if you will.
They had no way to judge what type of person TC was.
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I agree it does seem inconsistent. The Morinmoss healer, for example, could see Covenant's disease. Atiaran, on the other hand, could not.
But I think HLT has the rightest answer. The people of the Land could see Covenant's physical health, but but not into his spirit. They could not tell if he was good or ill, happy or sad, true or false.
But I think HLT has the rightest answer. The people of the Land could see Covenant's physical health, but but not into his spirit. They could not tell if he was good or ill, happy or sad, true or false.
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shadowbinding shoe
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Is this a result of his Leprosy? Being a deadening of his nerves it seems possible. If it is leprosy-related Linden would be perceived normally by the people of the Land. But I can't remember evidence from the books about that.
And in Fatal Revenant Linden and the rest couldn't sense anything about Covenant and Jeremiah, right? So are the Haruchai misremembering their history?
And in Fatal Revenant Linden and the rest couldn't sense anything about Covenant and Jeremiah, right? So are the Haruchai misremembering their history?
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I agree with HLT, but would like to add a thought.
The perception of one's character has (according to my understanding) to do with Laws in place in the Land. Some Laws affect TC and co. whilst in the Land (i.e. the ability to see physical disease in others), however, because they come from outside the Arch, there are some Laws that have no effect on them. Hence, TC, Roger, Jeremiah, Linden, and Joan would be closed to the people of the Land as far as their characteristics.
The perception of one's character has (according to my understanding) to do with Laws in place in the Land. Some Laws affect TC and co. whilst in the Land (i.e. the ability to see physical disease in others), however, because they come from outside the Arch, there are some Laws that have no effect on them. Hence, TC, Roger, Jeremiah, Linden, and Joan would be closed to the people of the Land as far as their characteristics.
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I agree with you that it is because they are from outside the Land that they are "closed".
I don't know if there is an an explanation of why that is. Perhaps it is, as you say, because Law is different for them in some way. Perhaps it is something that arises from Creation itself, and they are not of that Creation, and so don't partake of it. Or maybe they are too alien to the Land to be understood so intimately - a manifestation of "strange" itself.
I don't know if there is an an explanation of why that is. Perhaps it is, as you say, because Law is different for them in some way. Perhaps it is something that arises from Creation itself, and they are not of that Creation, and so don't partake of it. Or maybe they are too alien to the Land to be understood so intimately - a manifestation of "strange" itself.
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I don't agree with this. Unless I'm forgetting something, at no point were we told that Hile Troy was "closed" to healthsense.
I also don't remember any such thing about Linden in the 2nd or 3rd Chronicles.
The reason "Covenant" and Jeremiah are closed in FR is because of Roger's ability to wield elohim magic to prevent everyone else from seeing who they really are. It's probable that he knows that TC was closed in the past, and therefore is able to use that ruse to help pull off the charade.
I also don't remember any such thing about Linden in the 2nd or 3rd Chronicles.
The reason "Covenant" and Jeremiah are closed in FR is because of Roger's ability to wield elohim magic to prevent everyone else from seeing who they really are. It's probable that he knows that TC was closed in the past, and therefore is able to use that ruse to help pull off the charade.
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You may be right.
There's no references in the second Chronicles to Linden being "closed" because no one had any health sense except Linden. In in the Final C's, they are half the time in Kevin's Dirt.
But in Runes I find this:
As for Roger, there's no way to tell yet. He may be open but using his powers, or he may be closed, or he may be closed but also using his powers.
There's no references in the second Chronicles to Linden being "closed" because no one had any health sense except Linden. In in the Final C's, they are half the time in Kevin's Dirt.
But in Runes I find this:
I can't find anything about Hile Troy which shows he is open or he is closed.In [u]The Runes of the Earth [/u]was wrote:Stave blinked at the glaze in his eyes. Sternly he retorted, "It is sooth." He nodded at Linden past the fire. "Behold her. Do you discern falsehood?"
"Do not shame yourselves," Hami told the indignation of her people. "Do you lack sight? She has no falsehood in her."
As for Roger, there's no way to tell yet. He may be open but using his powers, or he may be closed, or he may be closed but also using his powers.
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Which makes me wonder.. whats the difference and the only thing I can come up with is this....
In the First books - TC is hurt but not dead in the Real world. The people of the land cant read him. But Hile Troy is dead and thus is now a permanent part of the 'Land'.
In the second set - No one can read her because of lack of abilty, but he might have been closed to her in ways beyond physical. Perhaps because he was still alive in the real world at the time. Perhaps because she didnt know how to look and see that with all the other 'wrong' around her, it might have been washed out.. or perhaps they may have shared a link because of the summons that blocked it.. but its never mentioned in the second set of books so we really have no way of knowing for sure.
In these last Chrons - Linden is dead in the 'real world' and now has no living identity exept in the Land. Thus she is now readable.
It could very well be that its whether or not they are alive in the real world that dictates whether they can be read or not.
In the First books - TC is hurt but not dead in the Real world. The people of the land cant read him. But Hile Troy is dead and thus is now a permanent part of the 'Land'.
In the second set - No one can read her because of lack of abilty, but he might have been closed to her in ways beyond physical. Perhaps because he was still alive in the real world at the time. Perhaps because she didnt know how to look and see that with all the other 'wrong' around her, it might have been washed out.. or perhaps they may have shared a link because of the summons that blocked it.. but its never mentioned in the second set of books so we really have no way of knowing for sure.
In these last Chrons - Linden is dead in the 'real world' and now has no living identity exept in the Land. Thus she is now readable.
It could very well be that its whether or not they are alive in the real world that dictates whether they can be read or not.
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The healer in Morinmoss saw Covenant's Land-based affliction, which is the madness from Amanibhavam (sp?).
As far as TC being closed, it made sense to me because these dreams are about TC examining life, and not about the people of the Land examining TC.
Hile Troy, of course, wouldn't be "closed" like this, as he's a figment of TC's imagination, just the same as the rest of the Land. He would interact just as naturally with the Land as any Stonedowner or Woodhelvennin.
LA, of course, was "closed" the same way TC was.
As far as TC being closed, it made sense to me because these dreams are about TC examining life, and not about the people of the Land examining TC.
Hile Troy, of course, wouldn't be "closed" like this, as he's a figment of TC's imagination, just the same as the rest of the Land. He would interact just as naturally with the Land as any Stonedowner or Woodhelvennin.
LA, of course, was "closed" the same way TC was.
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shadowbinding shoe wrote:The healer also noticed (just before she died) his leprosy. It was this sickness that made her want to kill him.Rigel wrote:The healer in Morinmoss saw Covenant's Land-based affliction, which is the madness from Amanibhavam (sp?).
But I think the people of the Land have always been able to see TC's health state. Its their ability to see 'right' or 'wrong' in TC that they werent able to read.
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I assumed that the reason Linden could sense his health is because she, like him, is from outside the Land.
No-one could see his leprosy or anything of him; remember Mhoram's words when Covenant was summoned to the Land a second time in the Illearth War; "High Lord, Hurtloam has been brought for the Unbeliever. I fear his wound extents far beyond this simple cut". (from memory, not exact) So he couldn't see Covenant's leprosy or feel him with his Health sense in any way.
The reason the Healer could see it is easy to speculate; she's a healer, she specializes in such things. Remember also the Elohim could see it also.
As for Mhoram being able to tell Covenant is dying; no, I don't think that was the ability to see into Covenant with his Health Sense; otherwise all the Lords, Quaan, Tohrm etc would have been able to read the same thing. But they couldn't; I think it says more for Mhoram's insight rather than his actual Health Sense to tell that Covenant was dying. After all; Covenant wasn't in the best of states.
No-one could see his leprosy or anything of him; remember Mhoram's words when Covenant was summoned to the Land a second time in the Illearth War; "High Lord, Hurtloam has been brought for the Unbeliever. I fear his wound extents far beyond this simple cut". (from memory, not exact) So he couldn't see Covenant's leprosy or feel him with his Health sense in any way.
The reason the Healer could see it is easy to speculate; she's a healer, she specializes in such things. Remember also the Elohim could see it also.
As for Mhoram being able to tell Covenant is dying; no, I don't think that was the ability to see into Covenant with his Health Sense; otherwise all the Lords, Quaan, Tohrm etc would have been able to read the same thing. But they couldn't; I think it says more for Mhoram's insight rather than his actual Health Sense to tell that Covenant was dying. After all; Covenant wasn't in the best of states.
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Perhaps.. But I also seem to remember that when TC returned to the land in TPTP, Foamfollower and Triock could see his health. I dont have the book in front of me but it seems as if Foamfollower says something about his life flickering or something like that when they were debating whether to use the highwood to warm TC. Triock was worried it would kill him.
We miss you Tracie but your Spirit will always shine brightly on the Watch
Well that could be the same as Mhoram; Covenant was in a hell of a state; close to dying. I mean if we saw a man close to dying in the streets; we wouldn't necessarily need health sense to see that person is close to death or very sick.SoulBiter wrote:Perhaps.. But I also seem to remember that when TC returned to the land in TPTP, Foamfollower and Triock could see his health. I dont have the book in front of me but it seems as if Foamfollower says something about his life flickering or something like that when they were debating whether to use the highwood to warm TC. Triock was worried it would kill him.