the Worm at World's End, the Elohim and the Stars

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shadowbinding shoe
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the Worm at World's End, the Elohim and the Stars

Post by shadowbinding shoe »

First, I have grave suspicions that everything I'm about to say was already said and discussed ad nauseum. If that's the case I'll say 'sorry :( ' and let this post sink into obscurity. If not, :D

Anyway, the Elohim's version of Creation Story seems at odds with the story we heard in the Land during the first chronicles. (I'll post the story at the end of my post if you want to look at it.) For one, there's no Lord Foul in it. And for another there's no Creator either. In short there is no guiding hand in the Creation of the world of the Land, either for beauty or for ill. We have the Worm which is hungry and we have the stars that are happy to do nothing but sing. The Earth is created when the two are joined to form the Elohim which are apparently the remnants of the stars the Worm swallowed. Now while the Elohim are very beautiful and potent, their part in the Creation of the Earth is at best incidental and plainly involuntary.

But all along the series we see that this world is not a random tumor but is built logically and has coherent Laws to govern it. The Creator even gets a few scenes in the books to prove his existence. What should we than make out of the Worm, the Elohim and their story?

The Creation story the Elohim tell does cover something the other story lack. It gives a material explanation for the creation of the world. The Creator creates the world, but we never hear what he made the world out of. His is a spiritual explanation. So where do the worm&stars' material explanation fit into the Creator's spiritual explanation?

The question would then be what sort of material would the creator use to make his creation? And the answer is of course ideas. The world the Creator creates is like a story and the stuff a story is made of is ideas. The stars that are still undevoured by the Worm are unrealized ideas and the Elohim are the realized ideas used in the Creation.

In that context the Worm is the creator's (writer's) inspiration, hunting for new ideas to enrich his story. We can see how rich the Land is from the amount of stars missing from its skies.

As the ideas that comprise the creation, the Elohim believe that they are the whole of creation. What matter a passing realization of an idea to the idea itself? If some mortal utilizes it in the outside world surely that wouldn't matter to (validate?) the idea. Likewise to them the Creator (as represented by the Worm that swallowed them) is not a kindly being. To them he is not a 'Creator'. They have already existed before he came as the stars, the unrealized free ideas. He just took them and imprisoned them in his creation where they had to suffer the indignity of having themselves tested by seeing how they are realized in the real world, something I'd reckon most ideas wouldn't be too keen on.

The stories about the stars being the Creator's children are explained as well (at least as far as the Elohim go. And since these stories come from the Giants who heard them from the Elohim and not the stars themselves this is not a problem). The ideas the creator (writer) has are like his children. A creator after all is not a physical being (in his capacity as a Creator) who'll have ordinary flesh and blood children. His children are his creations and more primarily the ideas he used in them.
Spoiler
This is supported by Esmer's assertion that he is Kestenessen's grandchild because to Elohim and their ilk familial relations arise from the passing of lore and not from fleshly ties.
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Pitchwife's recounting of the story:
"It is said among the Elohim, whose knowledge is wondrous, and difficult of contradiction" - Pitchwife conveyed a chortle of personal amusement - "that in the ancient and eternal youth of the cosmos, long ere the Earth came to occupy its place, the stars were as thick as sand throughout all the heavens. Where now we see multitudes of bright beings were formerly multitudes of multitudes, so that the cosmos was an ocean of stars from shore to shore, and the great depth of their present solitude was unknown to them - a sorrow which they could not have comprehended. They were the living peoples of the heavens, as unlike to us as gods. Grand and warm in their bright loveliness, they danced to music of their own making and were content.

"But far away across the heavens lived a being of another kind. The Worm. For ages it slumbered in peace - but when it awakened, as it awakens at the dawn of each new eon, it was afflicted with a ravenous hunger. Every creation contains destruction, as life contains death, and the Worm was destruction. Driven by its immense lust, it began to devour stars.

"Perhaps this Worm was not large among the stars, but its emptiness was large beyond measure, and it roamed the heavens, consuming whole seas of brightness, cutting great swaths of loneliness across the firmament. Writhing along the ages, avid and insatiable, it fed on all that lay within its reach, until the heavens became as sparsely peopled as a desert.

"Yet the devoured stars were beings as unlike to us as gods, and no Worm or doom could consume their power without cost. Having fed hugely, the Worm became listless and gravid. Though it could not sleep, for the eon's end of its slumber had not come, it felt a whelming desire for rest. Therefore it curled its tail about itself and sank into quiescence.

"And while the Worm rested, the power of the stars wrought within it. From its skin grew excrescences of stone and soil, water and air, and these growths multiplied upon themselves and multiplied until the very Earth beneath our feet took form. Still the power of the stars wrought, but now it gave shape to the surface of the Earth, forging the seas and the land. And then was brought forth life upon the Earth. Thus were born all the peoples of the Earth, the beasts of the land, the creatures of the deep - all the forests and greenswards from pole to pole. And thus from destruction came forth creation, as death gives rise to life.

"Therefore, Chosen," said Pitchwife firmly, "we live, and strive, and seek to define the sense of our being. And it is good, for though we compose a scant blink across the eyes of eternity, yet while the blink lasts we choose what we will, create what we may, and share ourselves with each other as the stars did ere they were bereaved. But it must pass. The Worm does not slumber. It merely rests. And the time must come when it is roused, or rouses itself. Then it will slough off this skin of rock and water to pursue its hunger across the cosmos until eon's end and slumber. For that reason, it is named the Worm of the World's End."
The Elohim's version:
"Sun-Sage," replied Daphin," we are the Wurd of the Earth."

She spoke clearly but her tome was confusing. Her Wurd sounded like Wyrd or Word.

Wyrd? Linden thought. Destiny - or doom? Or Word?

Or both.

Into the silence, Daphim placed her story. It was an account of the creation of the Earth; and Linden soon realized that is was the same tale that Pitchwife had told her during the calling of the Nicor. Yet it contained one baffling difference. Daphin did not speak of a Worm. Rather, she used that blurred sound, Wurd, which seemed to signify both Wyrd and Word.

This Wurd had awakened at the dawning of the eon and begun to consume the stars as if it intended to devout the cosmos whole. After a time, it had grown satiated and had curled around itself to rest, thus forming the Earth. And thus the Earth would remain until the Wurd roused to resume its feeding.

It was precisely the same story that Pitchwife had told. Had the Giants who had first brought that tale out of Elemesnedene misheard it? Or had the Elohim pronounced it differently to other visitors?

As if in answer, Daphin concluded, "Sun-Sage, we are the Wurd - the direct offspring of the creation of the Earth. From it we arose, and in it we have our being. Thus we are the heart, and the center, and the truth, and therefore we are what we are. We are all answers, just as are every question. For that reason, you must not judge the reply which we will give to your need."

Linden hardly heard the Elohim, her mind was awhirl with implications. Intuitions rand against the limits of her understanding like the clamor of bells. We are the Wurd. Morninglight swirling with color like the portrait of the clachon in metaphor. A willow leaved in butterflies. Self-contemplation.

Power.

Dear God. She could hardly form words though the soundless adumbration of the chimes. The Elohim-! They're Earthpower. The heart of the Earth. Earthpower incarnate.
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Post by amanibhavam »

Well, first of all you have to consider that these are just what they are, stories. Different facets of the same cut diamond that is the Creation of the World. You look closely through one of the facets you see the light filtered through the crystal but you can only see the whole if you take a step back. And in the case of the Land only the Creator had that privilege.
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Re: the Worm at World's End, the Elohim and the Stars

Post by wayfriend »

shadowbinding shoe wrote:The question would then be what sort of material would the creator use to make his creation? And the answer is of course ideas. The world the Creator creates is like a story and the stuff a story is made of is ideas.
Let me pass on something Donaldson said that you should enjoy:
In the Gradual Interview, Donaldson wrote:
  • As for the Arch itself: well, I admit that the language is inherently misleading. It implies a pre-defined structure with--among other things--two necessary ends (because an “arch” can’t stand without two ends which are attached to foundations). I regret that. I simply don’t have (and perhaps the people of the Land don’t have) a better way to refer to what is actually a *process*; or a set of on-going rules or mechanics which simultaneously enable things like chronology and consecutiveness (without which life as we know it would be impossible, and the Earth of “The Chronicles” would certainly cease to exist) and prevent things like wandering through eternity, or being everywhere at once, or even being in two places at once. My best analogy is the act of storytelling. “The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant” would be gibberish if I didn’t abide by a number of rules (like the Law of Time), some of which are so obvious that we don’t even think about them. Like sequence, linearity: sentences don’t actually mean anything unless the words are arranged in a very specific order. If you change the order, you change the meaning. And if you remove “order” itself, you remove all meaning. *That*, in its simplest terms, is the Arch of Time. It both imprisons and enhances each individual word, each individual character, each individual situation; each LIFE.

    I could go on and on about this; but I’m sure you get the point.

    (03/15/2006)
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Post by Caesar »

Wow, this could be a great little thread! Great postings, everyone!

shadowbinding shoe, I like your relation of the stars as "ideas". Very interesting, indeed! I think there are implications here that need a lot more exploration. We could find out a great deal about SRD, the Land and even TC (a writer and also a creator)...

Personally, I never liked Pitchwife's creation story. It lacks "soul". A giant worm ate some stars, took a nap and grew the world on it's skin? Kinda crappy (my opinion only, no offense to anyone here or to SRD :) ).

But, when you combine Pitchwife's story with the Elohim's version, I see that the stars (the Creator's children) were somehow hurt by the process of creating the earth. I don't remember the specific and I don't have the books here with me :oops: .

Anyway, the Creator hurt the stars while creating the earth. LF snuck some banes into the earth when no one was looking. Creator throws LF into earth. Elohim say they are the Wurd and that the Wurd is what ate the stars and curled up to form the earth. Could it be that:

1 - the Wurd is the Worm (and is also an embodiment of the act of creation)
2 - the Wurd/Worm is the source or incarnation of earthpower
3 - the Creator used the AoT to contain the Worm (to give it a place to be)
4 - the Worm, therefore is LF's bane (the thorn in his bottom)
5 - LF cannot wake up the worm himself (for some reason)
6 - LF forces TC and LA and others (I won't post FR spoilers) to use wild magic to wake the Worm and not to directly assualt the AoT itself (which he tried once and failed)
7 - if TC is now part of the AoT (and dead) - what would happen if he were resurrected and removed from the AoT?

Read the last chapter of FR - you'll see that this may make sense.

Here's a great bit from the "Worm of the World's End" thread: kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... ht=creator
Krilly wrote:The Worm story and the Creator story do not match up... so what do you guys think is the truth? I believe it's a compromise between the two.

Remember how it was said that the Creator had children, the stars? Perhaps they were what the Worm devoured, and them and the Creator lulled the beast to sleep... eventually shaping the Earth. From there, the Despiser is banished to the Earth/Worm and the AoT is used to both imprison him and keep the Worm contained.
In conclusion, I think my little explanation may clear things up. But then, I could be dead wrong...
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Post by Blackhawk »

I posted this somewhere but i thought the creators children were trapped here after they came to the land side while playing on a rainbow, then creator sealed them in during a fit of rage at Fouls tampering with the arch of time along with Foul, my Impression was that the Elohim were his (the Creators) children trapped here. so it surprises me that Foul didnt attack them earlier and as often as possible. maybe he was afraid of them? the land and lords seem like a small thing compared to revenge on the children of his captor. or they are just one of the banes the Creator placed while foul was tossing in evil items hand over fist. alot of implications as far as the Elohim are concerned..and i wonder..who would win if foul decided to try a direct affront of the elohim with no stone or bane to help him...just his lore and essence against theirs.
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Post by Menolly »

I thought the trapped children of the Creator was the explanation for the stars in the night sky...
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Post by wayfriend »

I'll repost what I posted in elsewhere. (Note: Runes spoilers there.)
... And, as seems likely, if the Worm is also the Würd of the Earth, and the Elohim are also the Würd of the Earth, then the Elohim are much more involved with the Arch of Time than we have seen to date. I cannot help thinking of the Elohimfest, and that the Elohim are the stars, caught in the Wounded Rainbow, devoured by the Worm, and trapped in the Arch; children of the Creator, living peoples of the heavens, and direct offspring of creation. By uniting the Worm and the Arch, we also unite the Elohim with the Creator.
Spoiler
Stars, she had heard, were the bright children of the world's birth, the glad offspring of the Creator, trapped inadvertently in the heavens by the same binding that had imprisoned the Despiser. They could only be set free, restored to their infinite home, by the severing of Time. Hence their crystalline keening: they mourned for the lost grandeur of eternity.

(Runes of the Earth)
That being said, I believe "children" is figurative rather than literal, as we might say "We are all God's children."

But it's not entirely figurative. The reluctance of the Elohim to do anything, despite their great power, reminds me in no small way of the Creator's limitations.

But I wanted to bring up that Runes quote. And the Elohimfest bit.
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Post by shadowbinding shoe »

About a contest between Foul and the Elohim, I think Foul has already done it, in all the books (and won).

When they say they are Earthpower incarnate I take it to mean they are avatars, personifications of the various Earthpowers that are in the Land. I imagine for example that somewhere in the Elohimdemesnedne there is an Elohim that personifies Aliantha, and another personifies hurtloam and so forth.

So when Foul corrupted the Earthpower with his Sunbane he was corrupting the Elohim, making them serve him and that was what the darkness they talked about in the second series was. They have become corrupt because Foul was corrupting the Earthpower in the world.
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Post by shadowbinding shoe »

Blackhawk - I was trying to figure out what kind of creatures Creator's 'children' might be. We get distorted thirdhand versions that are influenced by the slant their tellers give them so we should take them with a grain of salt.

I proposed that the Children of a Creator might be the Ideas he used in his Creations. The Creator is a non-corporeal, eternal being as far as we know that wouldn't procreate in the way mortal humans would. In what way are they his children? Are they mini-creators in the makings? Do they have a mother? Ideas fit the bill to me.

This works in a Platonist way. First you have the ideas, and out of them comes the material world where imperfect reflections of them are created. If the Creator is the father, the creation is the mother.
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Post by wayfriend »

I think that there's a strong comparison between the "children" and the Ainur in the Silmarillion. That they were rather abstract, lesser beings who became embodied during the Creation, and who have significant power because they are of the stuff of eternity as well as of the Earth. The Earthpower that they incarnate is part of that embodiment - it's of the Earth, Created, but the physical form of the Elohim is made of it.

They may even have originally been something like ideas, or demiurges, or subpersonalities of the Creator himself. (But I don't think that they were different ideas - they themselves proclaim that they are all one.)
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Post by Blackhawk »

True enough..the creator is not a corporeal being outside the Arch of time..and neither was Lord foul but at one time (bound by the Arch) he (Foul) did take physical form to join the council of lords, until Kevin burned his physical being to ash in the Ritual(assuming foul kept physical form to meet kevin at KW). Foul could have taken physical form again but probably didnt like its constraints as could the creators children if they had been given life rather than a mythical telling. The Elohim Have the ability to take any form or produce almost any healing act, Also a being more powerful than any other on the Planet, not just the land. the elohim are manifestations of earthpower sure...but what were they before that?
I dont believe foul was able to corrupt them but like Daphin said....it put a shadow on them making them delve into the dark side of their being. I guess you could say thats Fouls Way..subtle manipulation to reach his ends to make the corrupted believe the idea or path was one of their own choice. i wouldnt call that a victory over Elohim but one to make them doubt their ability...give them something else to think about, I do like the Idea of the Elohim being personifications of the lands earthpower like Aliantha, Hurtloam, Rillinlure etc...so whos the Earthblood? or (speculation) is that another bound Elohim? Not likely ..they dont leave dangerous weapons laying around and certainly wouldnt make one for mortals to find and use.

about the theory on the creators children, I'm sorry and of course no offence, but the creators children as Ideas instead of powerful beings bound by time doesnt make sense to me, who said creators dont have actual offspring??? so little was told about the creator and if he did have a wife or partner nothing at all was told of them..no being wants to be alone....not even a creator, after all Zeus had Hercules as a son and many other gods had children even Human children. I suppose it depends on what type of God/Creator/story it was to decide if it has physical children or not, if they are ideas then the creator is also an idea and foul was just a bad idea, and all of the banes he was putting into the earth would be banes without solidity unlike the Illearth stone, they would be things not of substance but the power making and binding the Bloodguard,the stondownors ability to heal Rock without a tool and Bereks coming of power with his own binding ritual at mt thunder with the firelions. Things of power but no physical material, the Illearth stone contained the power instead of being just a tool to channel it,,(I feel I'm Straying a bit) if the Creator and his children are an idea then it is the creation of another more powerful creator, or Covenants Mind if thats what anyone chooses to believe, I dont like to believe the land is a manifestation or dream TC is having, SRD said he would never leave us feeling like the dark tower left him feeling, and if this is all a dream then its going to leave me feeling exactly like i felt at the end of the Dark tower... :? :)

Maybe im at some disadvantage not having read Fatal Revenant yet? :D

Great postings Shadow Binding shoe. keep them up they make me think. :D
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Post by wayfriend »

No, you're not at a disadvantage, since this is a 2nd chronicles thread. But others should be careful not to spoil. (And I just noticed I used a Runes spoiler -- will fix!)

As for "children" being literal ... what parent would lock their children in with Lord Foul?
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Post by Blackhawk »

wayfriend wrote:No, you're not at a disadvantage, since this is a 2nd chronicles thread. But others should be careful not to spoil. (And I just noticed I used a Runes spoiler -- will fix!)

As for "children" being literal ... what parent would lock their children in with Lord Foul?
hehe..one who acted first and thought second :) I thought the creators realization that his children were on the land side, came after he created the arch?

Menolly...I think you are correct about the children being the stars we see in the sky, that was one of the stories From LFB i think.
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