YAY!! someone who says Puissance like I do!!I new PUISSANCE (I think) being a horsey person - PEW-SONSE I think it is.
Ruby
the "How the hell do you pronounce THAT??!" thread
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/ˈpyuəsəns, pyuˈɪsəns, ˈpwɪsəns/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pyoo-uh-suhns, pyoo-is-uhns, pwis-uhns]
Three pronunciations of puissance from Dictionary.com. I've been saying PWEE-suhns. Really, I don't care. It means power.
Three pronunciations of puissance from Dictionary.com. I've been saying PWEE-suhns. Really, I don't care. It means power.
Heard my ears aright? Did not the gaddhi grant me this glaive?
One must have strength to judge the weakness of others. I am not so mighty. Lord Mhoram in TIW
One must have strength to judge the weakness of others. I am not so mighty. Lord Mhoram in TIW
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Evans, that's funny. I found myself adding another syllable to some words, and didn't even know it until I saw this forum. Of course, since we don't read out loud, it's no biggie.
Heard my ears aright? Did not the gaddhi grant me this glaive?
One must have strength to judge the weakness of others. I am not so mighty. Lord Mhoram in TIW
One must have strength to judge the weakness of others. I am not so mighty. Lord Mhoram in TIW
- rusmeister
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Ditto.High Lord Tolkien wrote:shadowbinding shoe wrote: I'm intrigued now. How do you read "Silmarillion"? To me it's sil-ma-ril-yon (read quickly like so: Sil-MarilYOON)
"Sim-a-rillon"?......ah, I forget.
I corrected myself many years ago and forget now how I read it as a kid.
It made no sense if I remember correctly.
Now it's Sill-mar-rill-li-on I think
The movie drove me crazy though.
Gan-dolf ??
Not to me.
I always read it as Gan-dolf with a slight emphasis on the "dolf" more than the Gan.
Tolkien also said that Celeborn and other "c" words were pronounced Keleborn.
Which, in my head, just isn't going to happen!
I teach and study foreign languages, and one thing I can tell you is that insisting on speaking your own language, rather than the language of your listeners, is liable to result in failure to communicate, which is what Tolkien does here. (I get a strong sense that he didn't deal much in living languages.) If had wanted people to say "Keleborn" he should have written "Keleborn". The obvious truth that in modern English, a 'c' followed by an 'e' or an 'i' is pronounced like 's' keems to have escaped him.
"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one." Bill Hingest ("That Hideous Strength" by C.S. Lewis)
"These are the days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed except his own." G.K. Chesterton
"These are the days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed except his own." G.K. Chesterton
Re: LL=an 'f' sound too?
"ll" in Welsh is what's called a "lateral frictative"-- something we don't have in English. Position your mouth for our "l" but then let your breath hiss out rather as if you were trying to pronounce an "f" (or maybe "s"). That's why "lloyd" sometimes got written as "Floyd" by Englishmen who couldn't figure out what the Welsh were really saying. (By the way I've always thought of "Llaura" being pronounced like in Spanish, "Lyaura". But that' just me.)
Re: If had wanted people to say "Keleborn" he should have written "Keleborn". The obvious truth that in modern English, a 'c' followed by an 'e' or an 'i' is pronounced like 's' keems to have escaped him.
No, Tolkien was of a generation (late Victorian) when all educated people had had contact with Latin. In classical Latin (which is what he compared the Elf tongues to), "c" is always hard. Thus "Caesar" was pronounced "kaiser" just like its German derivative.
"ll" in Welsh is what's called a "lateral frictative"-- something we don't have in English. Position your mouth for our "l" but then let your breath hiss out rather as if you were trying to pronounce an "f" (or maybe "s"). That's why "lloyd" sometimes got written as "Floyd" by Englishmen who couldn't figure out what the Welsh were really saying. (By the way I've always thought of "Llaura" being pronounced like in Spanish, "Lyaura". But that' just me.)
Re: If had wanted people to say "Keleborn" he should have written "Keleborn". The obvious truth that in modern English, a 'c' followed by an 'e' or an 'i' is pronounced like 's' keems to have escaped him.
No, Tolkien was of a generation (late Victorian) when all educated people had had contact with Latin. In classical Latin (which is what he compared the Elf tongues to), "c" is always hard. Thus "Caesar" was pronounced "kaiser" just like its German derivative.
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Aleksandr wrote:Re: LL=an 'f' sound too?
"ll" in Welsh is what's called a "lateral frictative"-- something we don't have in English. Position your mouth for our "l" but then let your breath hiss out rather as if you were trying to pronounce an "f" (or maybe "s"). That's why "lloyd" sometimes got written as "Floyd" by Englishmen who couldn't figure out what the Welsh were really saying.
So I was close when I said:
drew wrote:Not really a teeth-on-the-lower-lip 'F'...more of a throaty
'gh'-y sound.
I thought you were a ripe grape
a cabernet sauvignon
a bottle in the cellar
the kind you keep for a really long time
a cabernet sauvignon
a bottle in the cellar
the kind you keep for a really long time
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I concede that he had a basis for writing it the way he did. My point is that his modern audience already had not, for quite some time, read English (the language he was writing in) that way. He went to some trouble to explain why he had translated names like Samwise, etc. Why did he not "translate" names like Celeborn? He could not have gotten another response than that of people reading them as "Seleborn", etc. If you want to be understood, you need to speak the language of your audience.Aleksandr wrote:Re: LL=an 'f' sound too?
"ll" in Welsh is what's called a "lateral frictative"-- something we don't have in English. Position your mouth for our "l" but then let your breath hiss out rather as if you were trying to pronounce an "f" (or maybe "s"). That's why "lloyd" sometimes got written as "Floyd" by Englishmen who couldn't figure out what the Welsh were really saying. (By the way I've always thought of "Llaura" being pronounced like in Spanish, "Lyaura". But that' just me.)
Re: If had wanted people to say "Keleborn" he should have written "Keleborn". The obvious truth that in modern English, a 'c' followed by an 'e' or an 'i' is pronounced like 's' keems to have escaped him.
No, Tolkien was of a generation (late Victorian) when all educated people had had contact with Latin. In classical Latin (which is what he compared the Elf tongues to), "c" is always hard. Thus "Caesar" was pronounced "kaiser" just like its German derivative.
"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one." Bill Hingest ("That Hideous Strength" by C.S. Lewis)
"These are the days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed except his own." G.K. Chesterton
"These are the days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed except his own." G.K. Chesterton
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Sill, I used to, but alas, I have aged and that body is no more. I even had the long red hair. Never had the cool outfit with sword though. Luis Royo is the artist I stole from for that avatar; if you can find a web site with some of his art work, this picture I have used will become meaningless to you; he has some really HOT stuff, and I DO mean HOT. I chose the name Rocksister because the First of the Search is my favorite TCoTC character. So my avatar had to be attractive and strong. I guess I did okay.
Heard my ears aright? Did not the gaddhi grant me this glaive?
One must have strength to judge the weakness of others. I am not so mighty. Lord Mhoram in TIW
One must have strength to judge the weakness of others. I am not so mighty. Lord Mhoram in TIW
re: I concede that he had a basis for writing it the way he did. My point is that his modern audience already had not, for quite some time, read English (the language he was writing in) that way. He went to some trouble to explain why he had translated names like Samwise, etc. Why did he not "translate" names like Celeborn? He could not have gotten another response than that of people reading them as "Seleborn", etc. If you want to be understood, you need to speak the language of your audience.
I think Tolkien's reason for not translating Elven names was that he wished for them to retain their aura of antiquity. And would we expect a author of historical fiction to translate "Caesar" as "Hairy One" or Demosthenes as "People's Strength"? Nor do we alter the spellings of Latin to reflect their accurate pronunciation in in the original language; we don't write "Yulius Kaisar" or "Oktawianus" though that is how those names were pronounced. As for the Elven spellings we do need to remember that Tolkien was NOT writing for a "modern" audience. He was writing first and foremost to please himself, and secondly for the educated folk of his own era, which is nearly a century removed from ours (Tolkien began composing his world during WWI).
I think Tolkien's reason for not translating Elven names was that he wished for them to retain their aura of antiquity. And would we expect a author of historical fiction to translate "Caesar" as "Hairy One" or Demosthenes as "People's Strength"? Nor do we alter the spellings of Latin to reflect their accurate pronunciation in in the original language; we don't write "Yulius Kaisar" or "Oktawianus" though that is how those names were pronounced. As for the Elven spellings we do need to remember that Tolkien was NOT writing for a "modern" audience. He was writing first and foremost to please himself, and secondly for the educated folk of his own era, which is nearly a century removed from ours (Tolkien began composing his world during WWI).
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Fair enough! I'll grant that, too.Aleksandr wrote:re: I concede that he had a basis for writing it the way he did. My point is that his modern audience already had not, for quite some time, read English (the language he was writing in) that way. He went to some trouble to explain why he had translated names like Samwise, etc. Why did he not "translate" names like Celeborn? He could not have gotten another response than that of people reading them as "Seleborn", etc. If you want to be understood, you need to speak the language of your audience.
I think Tolkien's reason for not translating Elven names was that he wished for them to retain their aura of antiquity. And would we expect a author of historical fiction to translate "Caesar" as "Hairy One" or Demosthenes as "People's Strength"? Nor do we alter the spellings of Latin to reflect their accurate pronunciation in in the original language; we don't write "Yulius Kaisar" or "Oktawianus" though that is how those names were pronounced. As for the Elven spellings we do need to remember that Tolkien was NOT writing for a "modern" audience. He was writing first and foremost to please himself, and secondly for the educated folk of his own era, which is nearly a century removed from ours (Tolkien began composing his world during WWI).
But you still have to admit that it is unreasonable to expect modern readers to go along with that pronunciation (excluding pedants specifically educated in classical Latin) ).
"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one." Bill Hingest ("That Hideous Strength" by C.S. Lewis)
"These are the days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed except his own." G.K. Chesterton
"These are the days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed except his own." G.K. Chesterton
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Aleksandr makes very good points .. I for one love that language is diverse and dont think that authors should contrain their artistic creativity by only writing to a set audience. I love that even uncommon language is used.
To me artistic freedom makes for a richer more vibrant tapestry. To me the language created by Tolkien is dynamic, powerful, mysterious even exotic. When I read words like Celeborn .. I visualise an elven noble ..
If you have read any Goodkind .. Wizards First Rule etc .. good books but one thing that always frustrated me was the commoness of the characters names .. i forget their names now .. but for example john fred carol etc ..
I spent a lot of reading time wishing Goodkind had chosen a richer vocabulary .. richer names .. but eh? *shrug* that was just me
To me artistic freedom makes for a richer more vibrant tapestry. To me the language created by Tolkien is dynamic, powerful, mysterious even exotic. When I read words like Celeborn .. I visualise an elven noble ..
If you have read any Goodkind .. Wizards First Rule etc .. good books but one thing that always frustrated me was the commoness of the characters names .. i forget their names now .. but for example john fred carol etc ..
I spent a lot of reading time wishing Goodkind had chosen a richer vocabulary .. richer names .. but eh? *shrug* that was just me
keep smiling
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In all of the Elvish languages that he has created the letter C is pronounced 'k', and in his linguistic notes and works he often uses spellings with K instead of C, especially in Quenya (the High-Elven language). He uses C throughout the names of LotR as they are almost all in Sindarin (the Grey-Elven langauge used as an everyday tongue in Middle-Earth at the time of LotR), which had been inspired by Welsh, and Tolkien wished to retain the "Celtic feel" of it.rusmeister wrote:I concede that he had a basis for writing it the way he did. My point is that his modern audience already had not, for quite some time, read English (the language he was writing in) that way. He went to some trouble to explain why he had translated names like Samwise, etc. Why did he not "translate" names like Celeborn? He could not have gotten another response than that of people reading them as "Seleborn", etc. If you want to be understood, you need to speak the language of your audience.Aleksandr wrote:Re: LL=an 'f' sound too?
"ll" in Welsh is what's called a "lateral frictative"-- something we don't have in English. Position your mouth for our "l" but then let your breath hiss out rather as if you were trying to pronounce an "f" (or maybe "s"). That's why "lloyd" sometimes got written as "Floyd" by Englishmen who couldn't figure out what the Welsh were really saying. (By the way I've always thought of "Llaura" being pronounced like in Spanish, "Lyaura". But that' just me.)
Re: If had wanted people to say "Keleborn" he should have written "Keleborn". The obvious truth that in modern English, a 'c' followed by an 'e' or an 'i' is pronounced like 's' keems to have escaped him.
No, Tolkien was of a generation (late Victorian) when all educated people had had contact with Latin. In classical Latin (which is what he compared the Elf tongues to), "c" is always hard. Thus "Caesar" was pronounced "kaiser" just like its German derivative.
In the Appendix of LotR he gives a fairly comprehensive text on the various languages, pronunciation included, so if anyone's interested will find it there.
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