Why is Mhoram considered so great?
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emotional leper
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SGuilfoyle1966
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You are mixing up a couple of things.dlbpharmd wrote:Actually, Mhoram was a seer but not an oracle, so while he could at times glimpse the future, he could not predict the outcomes of the actions of the present on the future.
Kevin was a seer but not a PROPHET. Only Berek was both. Kevin could see the future clearly, and plan for it. But he didn't understand the actual ramifications. Berek could.
But Mhoram is described as the seer and oracle of the council, until he gains the knowledge of power through despair.
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SGuilfoyle1966
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Someone said in another thread that Mhoram says all the really important things.
Like about Elena's battle with Kevin. It lasted a lot longer than anyone expected.
He was not so powerful as she had imagined him, Mhoram said.
Elena with the staff could go head to head with Kevin for a good nine rounds.
Doesn't anybody get that the only significant difference between the Old Lords and the New was the Oath? It was NOT one of their level of power?
Except maybe Berek. He's a paragon in all instances.
The Lore as created is Kevin's. Is there an actual "Ritual" where you say alakazam zimbop melenkurion abatha and the earth starts boiling?
Or is it just a willing attitude to take the power you can grasp and to USE it to destroy what you love? I don't know if there actually is.
The "ritual" between Kevin and Foul might have just been a childish meeting?
K: If you don't stop, I'll destroy the Land. I'll do it!
F: You're a chicken. I double dog dare you!
K: I'll do it, I mean it. Don't screw around with me.
F: I triple DOG Dare you.
Foul had created a major breach of playground etiquette skipping the triple dare and going straight for the throat.
K: Hey. I don't even need my Staff of Law. Let me toss it over HERE where no one will find and YOU JUST WATCH ME do it.
Back to being serious here -- Don't you get the significance of the Ritual of Desecration enacted by Trell? He could have destroyed all of Revelstone given enough time. If Revelstone went, Glimmermere robably goes with it. That would poison the Soulease, blow up tips of the Westron Mountains, part of Kurash Plenehthro (Sp?) Etc. Etc. Etc.
And all that leads to the answer why Mhoram is cool.
in the face of almost 60 years of defeat at the hand of the Despiser, Mhoram finds a way to power to defend only, resists despair, and is proof against Despite and Foul. The Land may fall, but Mhoram is unconquered.
The other hints to his absolute worthiness?
The Raver. He touched my mind, but I knew him.
He was daunted.
CovenantL Why aren't you High Lord, don't they appreciate you around here?
M: It is not my time.
Dead Mhoram -- You are worthy of him. You have brought shame to the dead. But when they remember who you are, they will be glad. Remember also, though, he is worthy of you.
My FRIENDS, I believe you will prevail.
He ALWAYS says the important things.
Like about Elena's battle with Kevin. It lasted a lot longer than anyone expected.
He was not so powerful as she had imagined him, Mhoram said.
Elena with the staff could go head to head with Kevin for a good nine rounds.
Doesn't anybody get that the only significant difference between the Old Lords and the New was the Oath? It was NOT one of their level of power?
Except maybe Berek. He's a paragon in all instances.
The Lore as created is Kevin's. Is there an actual "Ritual" where you say alakazam zimbop melenkurion abatha and the earth starts boiling?
Or is it just a willing attitude to take the power you can grasp and to USE it to destroy what you love? I don't know if there actually is.
The "ritual" between Kevin and Foul might have just been a childish meeting?
K: If you don't stop, I'll destroy the Land. I'll do it!
F: You're a chicken. I double dog dare you!
K: I'll do it, I mean it. Don't screw around with me.
F: I triple DOG Dare you.
Foul had created a major breach of playground etiquette skipping the triple dare and going straight for the throat.
K: Hey. I don't even need my Staff of Law. Let me toss it over HERE where no one will find and YOU JUST WATCH ME do it.
Back to being serious here -- Don't you get the significance of the Ritual of Desecration enacted by Trell? He could have destroyed all of Revelstone given enough time. If Revelstone went, Glimmermere robably goes with it. That would poison the Soulease, blow up tips of the Westron Mountains, part of Kurash Plenehthro (Sp?) Etc. Etc. Etc.
And all that leads to the answer why Mhoram is cool.
in the face of almost 60 years of defeat at the hand of the Despiser, Mhoram finds a way to power to defend only, resists despair, and is proof against Despite and Foul. The Land may fall, but Mhoram is unconquered.
The other hints to his absolute worthiness?
The Raver. He touched my mind, but I knew him.
He was daunted.
CovenantL Why aren't you High Lord, don't they appreciate you around here?
M: It is not my time.
Dead Mhoram -- You are worthy of him. You have brought shame to the dead. But when they remember who you are, they will be glad. Remember also, though, he is worthy of you.
My FRIENDS, I believe you will prevail.
He ALWAYS says the important things.
Do, or do not. There is no try.
I think you like me because I'm a scoundrel.
Irishman and Gamecock fan
I think you like me because I'm a scoundrel.
Irishman and Gamecock fan
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Bran Pendragon
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Some funny stuff here. Some of the stuff about Mhoram's action's all leading to Foul's ultimate victory presumably thousands of years later in the time of the Last Chronicles:
a) presumes a bit too much off Foul's ability to see the future - he clearly didn't expect to lose to TC in the 1st Chron, or to be unable to get past the dead TC at the end of the 2nd - he's not infalliably able to predict how things will turn out and when he says he is, I think he's just massaging his ego and trying to make people despair, and
FR SPOILER ALERT:
and
c) assumes that Mhoram abandoning Kevin's Lore cost the land something - whereas the 2nd Chrons suggest that under Mhoram's guidance the Lords raised Earthservice and the bliss of the land to hitherto undreamt of levels. It also assumes that Kevin's Lore would have somehow helped against the Sunbane, which seems a pretty fraught assumption given what we understand about how the Sunbane worked, and would have been in any case moot as by the time the Sunbane became a clear problem samedhi raver was controlling the Council and would have misled any attempt to stop the Sunbane - using Kevin or Mhoram's lore.
a) presumes a bit too much off Foul's ability to see the future - he clearly didn't expect to lose to TC in the 1st Chron, or to be unable to get past the dead TC at the end of the 2nd - he's not infalliably able to predict how things will turn out and when he says he is, I think he's just massaging his ego and trying to make people despair, and
FR SPOILER ALERT:
Spoiler
b) seems to be taking the logic of what Roger said when impersonating TC in FRabout Berek and Linden being failures who played into Foul's hands as gospel, rather than Roger being misleading in an attempt to bully Linden into giving him the ring. In FR we learn that Berek received almost no guidance on how to use Earthpower, so Mhoram's take on how best to might be just as legitimate as Kevin's. We also learn that Kevin enacted the RoD as punishment for getting his friends killed - the Wards, saving the Bloodguard and Ranyhyn were like a guy making arrrangements for his family to get his money etc before killing himself, it was a sop to his conscience before he threw in the towel.
c) assumes that Mhoram abandoning Kevin's Lore cost the land something - whereas the 2nd Chrons suggest that under Mhoram's guidance the Lords raised Earthservice and the bliss of the land to hitherto undreamt of levels. It also assumes that Kevin's Lore would have somehow helped against the Sunbane, which seems a pretty fraught assumption given what we understand about how the Sunbane worked, and would have been in any case moot as by the time the Sunbane became a clear problem samedhi raver was controlling the Council and would have misled any attempt to stop the Sunbane - using Kevin or Mhoram's lore.
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La Tristesse
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First post. Just wanted to pop in and query some of the people who seem to think Mhoram somehow was a failure or flawed in that he did not foresee Foul would taint his new lore. I think this is a flawed argument, since it is possible that authorial intent was that Mhoram had succeeded. The first chronicles end in a fairly conclusive manner, and if there had been no second chronicles, Mhoram would have succeeded. The second chronicles may undercut Mhoram's victory, but the first chronicles should not be read that way. They should be read as Mhoram having triumphed, unless Donaldson has stated otherwise that he already intended a sequel when crafting the first chronicles. It is authorial intent as much as anything which matters.
For me Mhoram is such a great character because he recognises his own flaws and because he is such a compassionate character. Part of Donaldson's magic was the creation of Foamfollower, Mhoram and Bannor. I'm guessing that in some part they are aspects of Covenant's psyche, although it has been so long since I read the first chronicles I could be making a stretch. They seem to be on similar journeys, but again, that's a trick of the story, they all have arcs which complete over the first chronicles. Part of the problem with the later books at my end has been that there have been no new characters to compare with those three, and that they can't be revived either, since it undoes all that has been told using them. I don't envy Donaldson the trap of sequels one bit.
For me Mhoram is such a great character because he recognises his own flaws and because he is such a compassionate character. Part of Donaldson's magic was the creation of Foamfollower, Mhoram and Bannor. I'm guessing that in some part they are aspects of Covenant's psyche, although it has been so long since I read the first chronicles I could be making a stretch. They seem to be on similar journeys, but again, that's a trick of the story, they all have arcs which complete over the first chronicles. Part of the problem with the later books at my end has been that there have been no new characters to compare with those three, and that they can't be revived either, since it undoes all that has been told using them. I don't envy Donaldson the trap of sequels one bit.
Welcome to the watch La Tristesse 
old or new lore it didnt really matter...i dont think getting rid of the old lore was a good idea...power is power and Corruption was like a cancer that would only be beaten back....but it always returns to corrupt the Earthpower or try at least. so no matter what path Mhoram took after Fouls temporary defeat..Foul would be back and nothing under the arch of time could avoid his corruption of the power being used for good purpose. Mhoram did as good as anyone could..he actually was stronger than Kevin, he unfortunately didnt have the Millennium of years that Kevin was gifted by possession of the staff of law.
old or new lore it didnt really matter...i dont think getting rid of the old lore was a good idea...power is power and Corruption was like a cancer that would only be beaten back....but it always returns to corrupt the Earthpower or try at least. so no matter what path Mhoram took after Fouls temporary defeat..Foul would be back and nothing under the arch of time could avoid his corruption of the power being used for good purpose. Mhoram did as good as anyone could..he actually was stronger than Kevin, he unfortunately didnt have the Millennium of years that Kevin was gifted by possession of the staff of law.
I think Mhoram is just one of those characters we all wish we had in our own lives. The kind, humble, reserved yet charismatic types that provide a beacon or hope in which to live our own lives. Another fantasy character that comes to mind is Samwise in LOTR. Certainly he's not on Mhoram's status, but he's that reassuring presence that keeps the hero on path even when the path is befuddled with all things malice.
Also, in that Mhoram kicked major ass at Revelstone against vastly superior odds is why I like him so much.
Also, in that Mhoram kicked major ass at Revelstone against vastly superior odds is why I like him so much.
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Rocksister
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Welcome, newbies, and be true. Mhoram's greatness, IMHO, is that he knew he was not infallible, knew he would and did make mistakes, but never let the blackness take over in his heart. He never despaired, he was strengthened by his love and commitment. The other Lords knew he had a secret; if he had not shared it, they would have come to the same conclusion and done the same thing. Trell's damage to the Close would have led the others to figure it out if Mhoram decided not to share what he already knew. Despite cannot die; you have to do what is in your power at the time to beat it back. Mhoram's actions contributed to millennia of peace; he could not achieve permanent peace forever because Foul could not be killed. Mhoram was wise and he knew this was the case; he could only achieve his desires for a time. The Chronicles could go on forever if SRD would live forever. Next up, The New Chronicles of Thomas Covenant..........
Heard my ears aright? Did not the gaddhi grant me this glaive?
One must have strength to judge the weakness of others. I am not so mighty. Lord Mhoram in TIW
One must have strength to judge the weakness of others. I am not so mighty. Lord Mhoram in TIW
nicely said about Mhoram. He was one character I was really bummed about after finishing the first Chronicles knowing full well that probably that was the last we'd hear from him. Characters like him, fictional or not, are so rarely seen that when they leave there's often a void that's rarely ever filled. I found myself relishing the pages Mhoram was in and honestly wished there were more of them. I think in the beginning that's why I wanted to re-read the first Chronicles knowing that I'd get to the good stuff in the Power that Preserves where Mhoram truly shined.Rocksister wrote:Welcome, newbies, and be true. Mhoram's greatness, IMHO, is that he knew he was not infallible, knew he would and did make mistakes, but never let the blackness take over in his heart. He never despaired, he was strengthened by his love and commitment. The other Lords knew he had a secret; if he had not shared it, they would have come to the same conclusion and done the same thing. Trell's damage to the Close would have led the others to figure it out if Mhoram decided not to share what he already knew. Despite cannot die; you have to do what is in your power at the time to beat it back. Mhoram's actions contributed to millennia of peace; he could not achieve permanent peace forever because Foul could not be killed. Mhoram was wise and he knew this was the case; he could only achieve his desires for a time. The Chronicles could go on forever if SRD would live forever. Next up, The New Chronicles of Thomas Covenant..........
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Rocksister
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Damack, I felt the exact same way. I have re-read the First Chrons over and over again, and each time I find myself skipping whole paragraphs, or speed-reading, to get to the parts where Mhoram is there. Pretty much every time he opened his mouth, I had that "ah, what a great man" feeling wash over me. His wisdom, compassion, and humility made him the greatest of the "new" lords by far, IMHO.
Heard my ears aright? Did not the gaddhi grant me this glaive?
One must have strength to judge the weakness of others. I am not so mighty. Lord Mhoram in TIW
One must have strength to judge the weakness of others. I am not so mighty. Lord Mhoram in TIW
Totally agree. The first time I read TPTP I hated the Covenant chapters, they were so bleak compared to the glory in every sentence of Mhoram's chapters. Every thought, every word, was beautiful. They're still my favorite parts of anything SRD has ever written.
"History is a myth men have agreed upon." - Napoleon
Rocksister has spoken well - but also consider that maybe another reason we love Mhoram so much is his ability to forgive. We all were shocked at Covenant's rudeness, crime of rape, unbelief, and yet Mhoram still treated Covenant with respect, kindness and compassion - I suspect we all would love to have such friends - and I guess some of us do.
Just saying...
Just saying...
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[Syl]
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Strangely enough, I remember being suspicious of Lord Mhoram during my very first read (I was 12... 19 years ago). He just seemed too nice, I suppose.
About the new lore being corrupted, though, I say it doesn't matter. He wasn't trying to one-up Kevin, much less Berek. He was just saying 'This way doesn't work for us; we'll find a new way.' It was about being true to themselves. What happened later is just unfortunate.
About the new lore being corrupted, though, I say it doesn't matter. He wasn't trying to one-up Kevin, much less Berek. He was just saying 'This way doesn't work for us; we'll find a new way.' It was about being true to themselves. What happened later is just unfortunate.
"It is not the literal past that rules us, save, possibly, in a biological sense. It is images of the past. Each new historical era mirrors itself in the picture and active mythology of its past or of a past borrowed from other cultures. It tests its sense of identity, of regress or new achievement against that past.”
-George Steiner
-George Steiner