"As if into a nightmare": TC's dream-like experien

[deer of the dawn]

One of Covenant's struggles in LFB is trying to decide whether or not it was all a dream. He believed that should determine his response to people and events.

One of the ways SRD keeps the tension going is by surreptitiously inserting dream-like qualities into Covenant's experience. I'm not talking just about the strange creatures and the use of supernatural energies. Things like the repeated feeling that his grip was slipping (when handling lillianrill, for example), that his footing was unsure, that he was forgetting something (his own clothes, a dream feature for sure), and the almost blithe acceptance the Lords give him into their inner circle, something that doesn't happen in real life. As they enter the Wightwarrens, it is described as like going into a nightmare.

There are also places where Covenant experiences sensations that one usually finds only in dreams or hallucinations- the feeling of becoming more solid or transparent, the feeling of paralysis when faced with a crisis, the experience of being 'chosen' but not knowing what for.

No wonder he had such a hard time believing!

[[Syl]]

Interesting. Perhaps you could ascribe the lords' difficulty in understanding Kevin's lore to the difficulty people have trying to read while in a dream.

And then there's the synesthesia, being able to see things that people normally wouldn't, and so on.

[Mortice Root]

I just finished LFB on my recent re-read and something popped out at me that sort of ties in with what you're talking about, deer.

There are numerous descriptions of TC percieving (sorry, I don't have exact quotes) something like "wings of darkness, behind the sky". This type of description comes up a couple of times, in moments of emotinal crisis for TC. He seems to be senseing something beyond the reality he is in - a potentially dreamlike quality.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Interesting. Perhaps you could ascribe the lords' difficulty in understanding Kevin's lore to the difficulty people have trying to read while in a dream.

Ha!
I love that.
That's awesome, I never knew that.
TC never actually reads anything in the Chronicles does he?

Except....if Kevin was a dream too then he would have written it the same dream way.........so that the New lord should read it clearly....but not necessarily ahh.... my head hurts.

[Rocksister]

HLT, I only remember TC reading his manuscript briefly before burning it in the fire, after having experienced the Land. And the note from the old man that the little boy handed him in LFB. And I seem to remember he had been reading a book when Joan called, and when he returned from the Land, the book he had been reading was still on the coffee table where he had left it. But all these things are in the "real" world. I don't remember any reading in the Land at all by TC. I really don't remember anything that he could have read, except the shining scrolls found in the casks that contained Kevin's Lore. Even the Lords had trouble reading that; they said something about it being in the old language or something, and they had to interpret what it said before they could interpret what it meant. Just going on memory here, and a poor one at that.

[AjK]

Very interesting thread. Compliments to all! I hope this doesn't sidetrack things but I have always been curious about one aspect of TC's dream issue. I will only speak for myself but would love to hear others' comments.

I have had dreams where I thought with 100% certainty that it was real and I have had dreams where I knew that it was only a dream. But I have also had dreams where I was not sure one way or the other. In fact, in one dream (as a child) I made a mental note to ask my mother later if it was a dream or not, LOL.

Now, let me preface this by saying that I have no experience even close to TC's leprosy condition so who knows how I would feel in his shoes. But I wonder why he felt that he couldn't let go of his defense mechanisms/behaviors when in the Land even if it was a dream. I have had dreams where as soon as I realized that I was dreaming I made the conscious decision to do things (not bad things mind you) that I would never do awake, e.g. jump from a high place to fly.

Perhaps it has just been too long since I read the first series and have forgotten TC's motivations. Now that I have finished Fatal Revenant, my forgetfulness sounds like an excuse for me to go back and read the series all over again! The fourth time will be the charm!

[Relayer]

He was afraid that if he gave up his discipline he wouldn't be able to regain it when he woke up. I see that as indicating just how much he hated having to live that way; how much his lost humanity and the ability to just live and do the things he would've wanted to do hurt him. To give that up for any length of time to the seduction of the Land's beauty and his "imagined" health would've destroyed any resolve he had when he returned.

I don't know if I'd make the same choices or not... as you said, we have no experience like his.

I envy that you've been able to have lucid dreams. I haven't (yet)...

[AjK]

To give that up for any length of time to the seduction of the Land's beauty and his "imagined" health would've destroyed any resolve he had when he returned.

Well said, Relayer. This is the part with which I just can't seem to empathize. I guess when your very life is on the line (in TC's case one slip-up could be fatal) you have to draw a hard line even in dreams.

I envy that you've been able to have lucid dreams. I haven't (yet)...

You know, I am not sure if I dream in color or not. I guess if I don't know for sure then I might not. Oh well.

[deer of the dawn]

HLT said:

TC never actually reads anything in the Chronicles does he?

Great observation!! I was thinking last night about the way he feels he needs to read "the runes of Morinmoss" but cannot decipher them. Definitely another dream-like conundrum!

I just finished LFB last night and started the next book (I have the 1st Chron in a one-volume set so I get the titles mixed up), and when he returns to the real world he now has trouble facing reality, feeling like he is still dreaming. He neglects his meds and VSEs. Maybe because he spent so much energy in the Land denying its reality.

(I definitely do dream in color. I don't know who decided we dream in b&w but they are wrong.)

[Relayer]

This is the part with which I just can't seem to empathize. I guess when your very life is on the line (in TC's case one slip-up could be fatal) you have to draw a hard line even in dreams.

Yea. I don't know that I can truly empathize either. I think my girlfriend is better at that than I was... Beyond being impotent, he also can't play sports, has to be careful with every step he takes, can't simply roll around on the ground playing with a puppy... really can't do anything that we would consider to be normal living.

I envy that you've been able to have lucid dreams. I haven't (yet)...

You know, I am not sure if I dream in color or not. I guess if I don't know for sure then I might not. Oh well.

I do dream in color, but not lucid (which means to me that I'm "conscious" in the dream and can choose actions). I have some level of awareness that it's a dream, but not enough yet to actually make choices.

[AjK]

Relayer,

Oooops. In rereading my post it looks like I am implying that lucid dreaming refers to dreaming in color. I didn't mean that. Your mentioning the ability for lucid dreams simply made me think about the ability to dream in B&W versus color. Sorry for not being clear. I was just jumping from topic to slightly related topic in my usual unfocused way, LOL.

However, you saying "haven't (yet)" makes me wonder if that type of thing does change over time. Now I feel I have to do some reading on dreams (and then take a nap...)

Andy

[AjK]

I don't know who decided we dream in b&w but they are wrong.

Dear of the Dawn,

That is interesting. I always (possibly/probably mistakenly) thought that it varied from person to person (i.e. some people dream in color but some only in B&W. I truly can't recall if I do or not. That seems strange to me. Stupid lazy brain ... just because I am slacking off by napping doesn't mean it should!

Andy

[[Syl]]

I only dream in color when colors matter. Most of the time, I'm not entirely certain I dream visually. But I did have a lucid dream the other night, and the colors were vivid as hell.

[Relayer]

I tend to dream in color, but I think it does vary from person to person.

It's said that people can learn to lucid dream (and beyond) but I haven't succeeded yet... google search brought up this link from WikiHow:

www.wikihow.com/Lucid-Dream

The most basic definition of lucid dreaming is "being aware you are dreaming while dreaming." Lucid dreams usually occur while a person is in the middle of a regular dream and suddenly realizes that she or he is asleep and must be dreaming. The person is then said to be "lucid", and may enter one of many levels of lucidity. At the lowest level, the dreamer may be dimly aware that he or she is dreaming, but not think rationally enough to realize that events/people/actions in the dream are not real/pose no threat. At the highest level, the dreamer is fully aware that she or he is asleep, and can have complete control over his or her actions in the dream. You can control your dreams using the lucid dreaming methods that follow.

If the Land is a dream, Covenant is a VERY adept lucid dreamer

[AjK]

At the lowest level, the dreamer may be dimly aware that he or she is dreaming, but not think rationally enough to realize that events/people/actions in the dream are not real/pose no threat. At the highest level, the dreamer is fully aware that she or he is asleep, and can have complete control over his or her actions in the dream.

When I did have lucid dreams I was somewhere in the middle of these two. In hindsight, the funniest ones I had as a very young man were the dreams where I would be too shy to try to kiss my date but would then realize that it was a dream and just figure "What the heck?" A sad (yet honest) comment on my youthful skills in the self-esteem and romance departments. (Not that I am much better now, just more considerate, LOL.) [Note to Self: Post more often in the Virgin thread...]

If the Land is a dream, Covenant is a VERY adept lucid dreamer

That is quite a good point. So much so that if I were TC it would really make me question my dream theory.

[deer of the dawn]

If the Land is a dream, Covenant is a VERY adept lucid dreamer

Respectfully disagree. Things get so completely out of control, the more so when he finally decides to do anything!!

[AjK]

Respectfully disagree. Things get so completely out of control, the more so when he finally decides to do anything!!

Deer of the Dawn,

Are you making that statement based on distinguishing between actively trying to control your dream and whether or not you are successful? In other words, is your point that TC is not a very adept lucid dreamer because he can't control his dream? Just curious.