"Old bearer of the flesh"?

[variol son]

In The Illearth War, Manethrall Rue calls herself the "old bearer of the flesh of her who was named Gay". The glossary describes her as a Manethrall, "formerly named Gay". What do you think this means? Has she just changed her name? If so, why? Or has the consciousness of Gay passed to another body, perhaps one her Cords? For some reason the latter was what I always thought had happened, but now I'm not so sure. Covenant asks if there is anything he can do to make her Gay again, to which she replies that he is young whilst she is old and near death, but little else is said about the issue. I just don't get it.

[Menolly]

I'll need to delve into The Illearth War to find why I have the opinion on this that I do, as I am not one who holds on to details. But, for me, the fact that "Rue" and "Gay" are opposites, and I am pretty sure there is a passage about something that caused Gay to become bitter in life, and thus to take on the moniker of Rue, I have always believed it was the same person who went through a challenge and is bitter about the outcome.

So for me it is the first option, that she changed her name.

[High Lord Tolkien]

So for me it is the first option, that she changed her name.

That's what I always thought too.

[Blackhawk]

I have to agree, she probably became Manethrall Rue when she lost family, friends and Ranyhyn to the Kresh or whatever Marauders were trolling the Planes of Ra. She must have changed her Name to Rue from Gay at her Chording ceremony when she became a Manethrall, probably not the happy occasion that it had been for earlier generations since it was about 42 years of fighting for Rue and her generation-the only peace time she knew was when she was a winholme. alot of the Ramen probably adopted names of sorrow and anger at their chording ceremony during the war years. just speculation on my part.

[variol son]

If she did change her name it wasn't until later in life - she mentions that she is not Manethrall Gay who heard the call from Revelstone for scouts.

I never picked up on the opposition of the words gay and rue (thanks Menolly ), but if she did simply change her name then what does she mean when she refers to herself as the "old bearer of the flesh that was once named Gay"?

[Menolly]

I never picked up on the opposition of the words gay and rue (thanks Menolly ), but if she did simply change her name then what does she mean when she refers to herself as the "old barer of the flesh that was once named Gay"?

That she is aging, and that she has faced challenges, hardship, and bitterness. Nothing more, I don't think.

[rdhopeca]

and I think it's "bearer", as in carrier, not "barer" as in exposer...meaning she carries her old flesh on her along with her bitterness.

[Menolly]

Oh, and also...

Isn't there a passage about how the Manethralls were retaining their positions far longer than was traditional for them? Due to injuries or deaths to the cords, who would be the next generation of Manethralls, in excess to what was normal?

So Rue may have been saying just what rdh said, that she is carrying her aging flesh on her frame, along with her bitterness.

[variol son]

Ah, I have been spelling bearer incorrectly, or rather, using the incorrect spelling. Sorry. The phrase "old bearer of the flesh" still doesn't make a lot of sense to me though. Old could definitely refer to Rue's age, but that just doesn't fit for me for some reason. *shrug*

The passage in The Power that Preserves refers to each Manethrall trainingand mentoring many more Cords than was traditional due to the high mortality rate amongst the Ramen.

[Menolly]

Ah, I have been spelling bearer incorrectly, or rather, using the incorrect spelling. Sorry. The phrase "old bearer of the flesh" still doesn't make a lot of sense to me though. Old could definitely refer to Rue's age, but that just doesn't fit for me for some reason. *shrug*

mmm...

It is definitely a sentiment I have heard expressed before among the elderly. Not that the name of the person is different, but that they are "walking around in the aging shell of a once vibrant spirit." Yet I could be totally off base in regards to SRD's purpose for stating it the way he does.

The passage in The Power that Preserves refers to each Manethrall training and mentoring many more Cords than was traditional due to the high mortality rate amongst the Ramen.

Ah, thanks. I think that has to do with Rue's bitterness as well, and why she changed her name from Gay to Rue. But I'll need to reread it and see if that is the one I'm thinking of.

[wayfriend]

The phrase "old bearer of the flesh" still doesn't make a lot of sense to me though.

The whole phrase, "old bearer of the flesh of her who was named Gay." simply means, "I used to be called Gay". The phrasing is poetic, not literal! She feels that what she has seen of war and the depradations of the enemy has changed her so much that she's not the same person inside any more. She doesn't even feel related to her old self. Hence the poetic admonition that the only thing she has in common with her old self is the same physical body.

In short, this is a statement that she's suffered a profound spiritual change.

In those days, it seemed Ramen names were often plain words chosen to reflect the spirit or character of their bearer. We have Gay, Lithe, Thew, Hum, Grace.

If her given name, Gay, was meant to reflect her spirit, then she can no longer countenance keeping it, since she anything but happy. So she chose a new name for herself - Rue - which better represents her spirit.

[Menolly]

Thanks, wayfriend.
That is pretty much what I was trying to say.
Well put.

[deer of the dawn]

The phrase "old bearer of the flesh" still doesn't make a lot of sense to me though. Old could definitely refer to Rue's age, but that just doesn't fit for me for some reason. *shrug*

Ah, variol son, wait till you get older. It'll fit all too well.

[Rocksister]

Wayfriend has the same idea I had when I read it. When Rue entered the Council to share her story and tell about her journey, she was an embittered, tired, sad person, whose very reason for existence was being eroded before her very eyes. She had seen a happy, free existence turn into one of poverty, starvation, fear, and battle, not just for her, but for her beloved Ranyhyn and all her fellow Ramen. You could see she had no patience for the protocol and formality of being in the Council; she wanted to share her horrible news and let go of the burden. To see her change from the little Winhome who made Foamfollower laugh so heartily ("Not so little, Giant. I have almost reached Cording.") to the old, wrinkled, angry woman who stood before the Lords was one of the defining moments for me in showing what had occurred to change the fundamental spirit of the Land. It was one such moment for Covenant, too, and it didn't escape him what she had sacrificed. Some moments stand out in my memory in the Chrons; this is one of them. It was like a turning point, the time when they all had to admit, "Well, it is now upon us now. We know what our fate looks like." Great question.

[Blackhawk]

To see her change from the little Winhome who made Foamfollower laugh so heartily ("Not so little, Giant. I have almost reached Cording.") to the old, wrinkled, angry woman who stood before the Lords was one of the defining moments for me in showing what had occurred to change the fundamental spirit of the Land. It was one such moment for Covenant, too, and it didn't escape him what she had sacrificed.

yes...i remember this also, it was one of the moments that made me one more step towards respecting Covenant. while everyone was yelling at Rue calling her a raver and saying shes a liar he was the only one who stood up for her and what she had been through and the loss of all her friends/Chords, then Hiltmark Quan getting an ugly view of the council Commanded silence to the chaos, Great moment.

[wayfriend]

Yes!

The next moment, Covenant reached her side.

Shaking his fists at the assembly, he howled, "Hellfire! Can't you see that she's telling the truth?"

His voice had no effect. But something in his yell penetrated Hiltmark Quaan. The old veteran knew the Ramen well; he had known Rue during her youth. He jumped to his feet and shouted, "Order!"

Caught in their trained military reactions, the Hafts sprang to attention.

Then High Lord Elena seemed to realize what was happening around her. She reasserted her control with a blast of blue fire from the Staff, and one hot cry:

"I am ashamed!"

I also liked Rues come-back: "Do not flex your distrust at me. I know you all."

[variol son]

That's one of my favourite lines in the whole book.

[deer of the dawn]

I edited my response above and I want to apologize. I was being mean and I'm sorry, variolson.

[Relayer]

Yes!

The next moment, Covenant reached her side.

Shaking his fists at the assembly, he howled, "Hellfire! Can't you see that she's telling the truth?"

His voice had no effect. But something in his yell penetrated Hiltmark Quaan. The old veteran knew the Ramen well; he had known Rue during her youth. He jumped to his feet and shouted, "Order!"

Caught in their trained military reactions, the Hafts sprang to attention.

Then High Lord Elena seemed to realize what was happening around her. She reasserted her control with a blast of blue fire from the Staff, and one hot cry:

"I am ashamed!"

I also liked Rues come-back: "Do not flex your distrust at me. I know you all."

I'm getting chills just reading this now. Good stuff.

[CovenantJr]

I have to agree, she probably became Manethrall Rue when she lost family, friends and Ranyhyn to the Kresh or whatever Marauders were trolling the Planes of Ra. She must have changed her Name to Rue from Gay at her Chording ceremony when she became a Manethrall, probably not the happy occasion that it had been for earlier generations since it was about 42 years of fighting for Rue and her generation-the only peace time she knew was when she was a winholme. alot of the Ramen probably adopted names of sorrow and anger at their chording ceremony during the war years. just speculation on my part.

The nail has been soundly struck upon the cranium here.