Central character

[fortenbm]

I've been wanting to post/reply and/or start something pithy concerning the TC Chronicles, but I've been really busy at work and school. However, I'm about to dive in.... Is this the right place to start a discussion, or should I pick an appropriate forum?

What is on my mind right now is the central character in each Chronicle. I'm not saying I don't appreciate Linden, but I just loved the first Chronicles so much when Thomas Covenant was the central character. I also found that additional characters were more fleshed out in the first Chronicles. I'd be interested to get some opinions and comments.

Michael

[amanibhavam]

Hello,


I do not agree with your last statement. In my opinion the 2nd and the Last Chronicles are full of fully fleshed-out characters (only naming some for the 2nd here), e.g. Sunder, Honninscrave, Hamako, Pitchwife and The First all have been portrayed really vividly, have backgrounds, stories, feelings, aspirations etc.

[fortenbm]

Well, I don't mean they weren't realized, just not as fully as the first chronicles. There hasn't been another Mhoram or Saltheart Foamfollower. That said, I do enjoy all the Chronicles. I guess I'm just wishing I could read it all for the first time again.

[AjK]

Personally I didn't see too much reduction in character development and/or depth between the first and the second chronicles (although I understand your feelings towards Mhoram and Foamfollower.)

* avoiding any spoilers here *

My concern has been more centered on my current reading of the third chronicles. I have heard that SRD has said that he is telling this last portion of the story more slowly and in more detail for a reason. Okay, that helps explain why I feel that at 50% of the way through the last chronicles I feel the storyline has moved much more slowly than those in chronicles one and two. But somehow I do not feel the depth of the characters as much. I mean, look at who you meet in the 3rd chronicles! (Hopefully that was a tickler not a spoiler...)

Maybe I am just getting old and quasi-jaded. After all, I read the first six books over twenty years ago. Also, maybe the "newness" of the first chronicles made the story and characters seem more fleshed out and vivid. Regardless, I still love them all right up through FR. After I get through a few other books I intend to go back to the beginning and read them all again ... slowly.

[Guest]

What is on my mind right now is the central character in each Chronicle. I'm not saying I don't appreciate Linden, but I just loved the first Chronicles so much when Thomas Covenant was the central character.

For those that have an issue with Linden as the POV character, the THOOLAH thread is required reading. Just make sure you have a grain of salt or two...

[Relayer]

Andy, you make good points about our reading experience. We were all so much younger then... (I feel like I'm quoting Dylan). And the first time through the series generates so much wonder at all the beauty. How can anything compare with the first time in Andelain? The first sight of Revelstone? Meeting all the peoples of the Land and experiencing how they honor the Land and each other?

As humans, it seems to be in our nature to feel "been there done that" whether we want to or not.

I wish I could read it all for the first time again too. At least I get to experience my girlfriend going through it now...

[CovenantJr]

Andy, you make good points about our reading experience. We were all so much younger then... (I feel like I'm quoting Dylan). And the first time through the series generates so much wonder at all the beauty. How can anything compare with the first time in Andelain? The first sight of Revelstone? Meeting all the peoples of the Land and experiencing how they honor the Land and each other?

As humans, it seems to be in our nature to feel "been there done that" whether we want to or not.

I wish I could read it all for the first time again too. At least I get to experience my girlfriend going through it now...

Am I the only one who was more affected and touched by the sheer magnitude and inescapability of the evil than by the beauty? Many Watchers talk about Andelain, Revelstone and (particularly) the Giants - and yes, I appreciate all of them - but what floored me was Lord Foul.

[aTOMiC]

I'll try to keep from diving headlong into THOOLAH territory here but I seem to understand and relate to the point of this thread. I too feel that there is something missing. It's easy to point to Linden as the cause but perhaps there's more to it than that.

My first impression of the Las Chrons was a little negative in that it felt a little like when you base a sequel to a blockbuster movie on a supporting character. Rarely does this ever work. (Evan Almighty). I mean it's human nature to spend the entire film wondering why the award winning actor's character is no where to be found but the guy you kind of liked WHILE he was interacting with the original main character is up there on screen all by his lonesome. Makes you feel a little cheated. Especially if the other supporting characters from the first film are missing as well and you have to get acquainted with a bunch of new characters who are now interacting with the former second fiddle.

I guess what I'm saying is except for the Land, Linden some recognizable communities of characters and Lord Foul, the Last chrons is chock full of brand new characters that haven't as yet made me forget I'm missing Brinn, The First, Pitchwife, Mhoram, Quaan, Hile Troy, Elena, Bannor, Cail, Vain, Findail, Foamfollower and of course Thomas Covenant.

[danlo]

(dang Floridians)
I second the Cov...we, actually, talked about this in Denver.

[CovenantJr]

I second the Cov...we, actually, talked about this in Denver.

Indeed we did, in the pool as I recall.

[Relayer]

(I posted this in the other thread, but it's better here...)

Indeed. And I understand your feelings.

But if it was all characters from the first 2 series, a whole lot of people would be complaining too. "jeez, can't he even think of new characters?" or "that's not how I remember her!" Look at the reaction to (FR spoilers):

Spoiler

the scene with Berek, a character who we'd never even met, or to things like "so we've already been to the Earthblood..."

It's a no-win situation... no matter what SRD does, he takes a risk. Or we could look at it like a "no-lose" situation... whatever he writes is about the Land. I'm not saying blind adoration (there are certainly parts that have frustrated me too), but enjoy it for what it is, not what you wish it was.

[aTOMiC]

Relayer, (if your post was addressing my comment, not sure) I want to state for the record that I have enjoyed the Last Chrons for what they are...so far. I'm not really wishing it was different I'm just being honest about my reaction to the story thus far and also to do what I can to define my opinion. Identify where it comes from, it's source. I don't find myself as engaged as I've been in the past while reading the earlier parts of the story. To be completely honest there were times while reading The One Tree that I wasn't totally immersed, however once I completed WGW it all kind of snapped into place. I'm hoping for the same kind of feeling when I finish reading the final book of the Last Chrons. Who knows? I might find a way to fall in love with Linden after all.

[wayfriend]

I dissagree that Linden is a supporting character. She's a co-star with equal billing. As long as you resist believing this, you're doomed to unhappiness.

I do agree that

Spoiler

there's some kinds of things that are missing in the Final Cs. The secondary characters aren't as captivating.

But let's not persue that last bit in this forum.

[aTOMiC]

I dissagree that Linden is a supporting character. She's a co-star with equal billing. As long as you resist believing this, you're doomed to unhappiness.

I do agree that

Spoiler

there's some kinds of things that are missing in the Final Cs. The secondary characters aren't as captivating.

But let's not persue that last bit in this forum.

Truthfully this is simply a difference of opinion.
When SRD begins labeling his books "The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant and Linden Avery" there won't be many arguments to be made.

What if back in the 1970s they went forward with the Star Trek II television series but shifted the focus of the show to Spock and wrote Kirk out completely? Spock is no second banana and he's wildly popular but if you remove Kirk quite a lot of the "magic" goes bye bye. Hard core Spock fans probably would disagree with me which is always healthy for spirited discussions.

Suppose the first three Star Wars films were called "The adventures of Luke Skywalker" and at the end of Empire Strikes Back Luke is sent off to the far reaches of the galaxy and Leia's character takes over his role in Jedi. (Which I have to admit would be kind of interesting). Wouldn't we all tend to say "WTF? Where the hell is Luke?" I mean we couldn't help ourselves, right?

This is what I'm saying.

[wayfriend]

When SRD begins labeling his books "The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant and Linden Avery" there won't be many arguments to be made.

I don't think it's as easy as change the title and everyone loves Linden Avery.

(And I don't think Donaldson is obligated to change the title just because Linden is equally as important as Covenant.)

What if back in the 1970s they went forward with the Star Trek II television series but shifted the focus of the show to Spock and wrote Kirk out completely?

This REALLY needs to be continued in the FR or Runes Forum.

Spoiler

I'd say, that has nothing to do with the Final Chronicles, because no one wrote Kirk out completely. Er... I mean Covenant...

There have been one or two episodes were Spock sat in the captains chair and Kirk is off on some sort of mysterious mission. It's like that. Only it's being dead instead of a mysterious mission.

But seriously ...

This series was so hard to write that Donaldson didn't attempt it for twenty years. Right?

I'm pretty sure that one of the major things that made it so hard to write was that Covenant could not be the protagonist. (Certainly Lester "Tarzan Book" Del Ray would not have allowed it.)

So IMO it's like this: it NEEDS to be written the way it's written. Donaldson had the hard choice of writing it this way or not at all.

Which is another way of saying, if Donaldson had TC in the story more, it would be worse, not better, because he'd be poorly executing what he has envisioned.

That works for me. I'll try to find my glass half-filled.

[aTOMiC]

When SRD begins labeling his books "The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant and Linden Avery" there won't be many arguments to be made.

I don't think it's as easy as change the title and everyone loves Linden Avery.

I couldn't agree more.


If I've said it once I've said it a thousand times.
I'm enjoying the Last Chrons and I'm thrilled SRD is writing the books.
Whether I find Linden to be a waste of skin or not has no impact on my appreciation for the work SRD is doing or my admiration for his skill as an author...my FAVORITE author of all time! (I hope you read that part, Steve. )

[Relayer]

TOM, sorry... I forgot to quote you. And my reply wasn't specifically to you alone. Like Wayfriend, I'm in the 'glass half full' camp. I agree, there's no one like Mhoram, Foamfollower, or Pitchwife...

FR comments...

Spoiler

Stave is pretty fascinating to me, as are Mahrtiir and Esmer, who I wish got more ink. And I get the feeling Jeremiah and Roger would be, if we could get a deeper look at their motivations. As would the Insequent. I kind of wish he was writing this like the Gap, using multiple POV characters (which I suspect he'll start doing, he's hinted at it in the GI).

But I find it engaging in a different way - not quite as magical, more of the intellectual mystery aspect of it. And as I said in another thread today, we're not the same readers we were when we first read LFB.

[fortenbm]

Hey,
I really appreciate all the replies. This is certainly what appeals to me about KevinsWatch. You just can't have this conversation with most people.

Let me state emphatically, I am really enjoying Last Cron and I'm truly excited to be reading books about the Land for the first time again. We might even find, as already mentioned, that when we get there, we'll be awed by the ride.

I do miss Mhoram, Elena, FoamFollower, Triock, Hile Troy and all those wonderful characters, but I'm also willing to learn to love the new ones. Let's just see what happens. Ain't it awesome !!

[Holsety]

Andy, you make good points about our reading experience. We were all so much younger then... (I feel like I'm quoting Dylan). And the first time through the series generates so much wonder at all the beauty. How can anything compare with the first time in Andelain? The first sight of Revelstone? Meeting all the peoples of the Land and experiencing how they honor the Land and each other?

As humans, it seems to be in our nature to feel "been there done that" whether we want to or not.

I wish I could read it all for the first time again too. At least I get to experience my girlfriend going through it now...

Am I the only one who was more affected and touched by the sheer magnitude and inescapability of the evil than by the beauty? Many Watchers talk about Andelain, Revelstone and (particularly) the Giants - and yes, I appreciate all of them - but what floored me was Lord Foul.

Lord Foul didn't really floor me until he did that whole thing where he'd rather have covenant destroy him and become a new evil than have covenant spare him. I don't remember when that was (I think it was in TPTP when all the ghost-lords are egging on Cov to kill Foul) but it was definitely a "whoa, this guy is really messed up" moment. Foul really plays for the long term.

[wayfriend]

This is funny because it was posted with impeccable timing relative to this thread.

Stephen Collings: Hi Stephen.
Thanks for your kind reply to my "Time Travel" ideas.

I am curious about something that you might like to answer:
Did you ever consider, or want to call the Second Chronicles, "The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant and (Dr.) Linden Avery"? (or even vica versa!?) (or any title at all which mentions them both!)

I ask because (a) it would have been truer, and I like the idea, and(b) with you now not calling the third chronicles, "The Third Chronicles", suggests an aversion to numerically-titled sequels.

Now, I think I recall that your editor Lester Del Ray didn't like the idea of a female protagonist at all (!), so I am already guessing that it would have been a NO-GO with him! Also I think that "Second Chronicles" *is* a good title in this case, because I think we were all very happy to have a second helping!

But I am asking whether you thought about "putting Linden up there", and whether you would have liked it, and whether you thought it might appeal successfully to your readers, and to the browsing public. I do see one problem in that, for me, in Britain, both "Linden" and "Avery" are unfamiliar to me as names. (But she could have had different names.) And I am curious, if your answer is "yes" "I wanted Linden in the title!" , as to what might "The Last Chronicles" would now be called!

Also, I'd like to ask you about the dropping of "Unbeliever", and about Covenant's, er, outlook on the Land, at the beginning of 2C. I mean he tell's Linden it's a dream (and it look that way, as they're both laying unconcious out in the woods) but also he's experienced Joan's raw, raving condition, and he thinks it is Foul, yes (?), so I guess he must now think it must all also be more than *just* a dream. I understand that the real/unreal question is not so important to him after the climax of the Power that Preserves, but I wonder how he felt about it all having a greater reality than he once thought. As we see this through Linden's eyes, we don't get any insight into this. Could you elucidate Covenant's thoughts and reactions to this?

Thank you again for your enticing tales.

• I wish I had something interesting to say about all this. Sadly, I don't.
  
  1) No, I never considered putting Linden Avery's name in the title of "The Second Chronicles".
  2) Lester would certainly have vetoed the idea.
  3) In retrospect, I have no regrets. Both thematically and personally, Covenant has always been central to my intentions. In some respects (and please don't take this as IN ANY WAY reducing Linden's vital significance), Linden's function in the story is as a "way in": a window through which to view Covenant's struggles; and a means by which to extend, elaborate on, and develop those struggles. I also never considered putting her name in the title of "The Last Chronicles." Nor do I regret not doing so.
  4) "The Unbeliever" was dropped from the title of "The Second Chronicles" for the reason you mention ("unbelief" has ceased to be a central theme), and also because "The Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever" seemed too long even to me--never mind to Lester.
  5) This last story is not called "The Third Chronicles," not because I object to using numbers, but rather because I consider it absolutely essential to emphasize that this is indeed THE LAST. After this, there ain't no more.
  
  (07/16/2008)