THOOLAH has come to redeem your mortal soul.

[dlbpharmd]

[AjK]

What aTOMic said. Exactly. The new characters are more "academically" interesting to me than anything else. Still enjoying the last chrons, though. I will give them time...

[wayfriend]

My first impression of the Las Chrons was a little negative in that it felt a little like when you base a sequel to a blockbuster movie on a supporting character.

And there's one mistake. Linden ain't no supporting character. Linden has a starring role. (They wrote a whole third Chronicles just about her, you know!)

Donaldson has made the story about two characters, and you are resisting admitting it to yourself.

Seems to me that Linden realises everything is suspect, but almost doesn't care. Her passion for the things she cares is so consuming that she takes a fairly cavalier, "if this is playing into Foul's hands, so be it!" attitude.

And you haven't caught on yet that that is the only correct response? It's not cavalier -- it's experience hard-won over two previous chronicles.

When High Lord Mhoram had tried to summon him to the Land for the last battle against Lord Foul, he, Covenant, had resisted the call. In his own world, a small girl had just been bitten by a timber-rattler—a lost child who needed his help. He had refused Mhoram and the Land in order to aid that girl.

And Mhoram had replied, Unbeliever, I release you. You turn from us to save life in your own world. We will not be undone by such motives. And if darkness should fall upon us, still the beauty of the Land endures—for you will not forget. Go in Peace.

"I should've understood," Covenant went on, addressing no one but the cold stars. "I should've given Seadreamer some kind of caamora. Should've found some way to save Hamako. Forget the risk. Mhoram took a terrible risk when he let me go. But anything worth saving won't be destroyed by choices like that."

[CovenantJr]

I disagree. If that was Covenant's conclusion, I think he was wrong. And I think Linden's a berk.

[wayfriend]

Well, that's irrefutable.

[Relayer]

... that is the only correct response? It's not cavalier -- it's experience hard-won over two previous chronicles.

"It boots nothing to avoid his snares." She knows the only way through, the only way to resolve her crises is to take the path prepared for her. And just like Covenant in WGW, find a way to prevail anyway.

[CovenantJr]

Well, that's irrefutable.

Heh, indeed.

Ok, allow me to elaborate a little. It's one thing to accept that everything you do probably works to Foul's advantage, but it's another to ignore the significance of that possibility. The way Linden acts, I don't feel she's taking the actions she feels are right and accepting the risk that they aid Foul; I think she's acting regardless, and would take exactly the same action whatever the situation may be. That's why I say she's cavalier.

[AjK]

I think I feel similarly. The way I would phrase this difference is that TC did what he thought was right to save the Land even if it sent him into a LF snare. LA is doing what she thinks is right to save her son even if it means a snare that endangers the Arch/Land. I started out not liking this probably because I loved the Land (due to several rereads, LOL) more than I loved her son whom I really haven't come to know that well yet. Once I kinda saw this about my POV I backed off LA a little...

[AjK]

Okay, so I thought a little more about the subject of LA being selfish since she is risking the Land to save her son. Now let me say that I am not trying to stir the battle cry of THOOLAH nor am am I reinforcing the dogma of the Linden Avery Support Guild. But I would like to pose a question. If you look at the Land as an internal manifestation of self (and I know we have both "internal" and "external" folks here at KW) could it be argued that it is actually TC who was more selfish than LA? He is trying to save himself (the Land) while LA cares only about saving her son even at the potential expense of herself (the Land). [Hmmm ... with my luck I will be excommunicated by both THOOLAH and the LASG.]

[wayfriend]

LA is doing what she thinks is right to save her son even if it means a snare that endangers the Arch/Land.

I wish I knew where that myth got started. See sig.

BTW Covenant spent two books trying to spare himself even if endangers the Arch/Land. Screw the Land, I'm a leper. I mention this because I don't think people realize how inconsistent they are when they come up with these rationalizations for dissing Linden.

Maybe what we have here is this: TC forfeit his whole life to save the Land. So I guess if Linden does anything less than that she's selfish by comparison. I don't think that's really fair.

[aTOMiC]

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one." LA's actions and attitude suggest that she has tunnel vision. She's giving those that doubt her plenty of ammunition.
And from the perspective of some of the characters it appears that she is willing to risk the Land in order to save Jeremiah

However every member of THOOLAH is also an SRD fan and the fact remains that Donaldson has something up his sleeve. He has shown in the past that while it appears on the surface his protagonists have lost his or her minds, there are issues/factors at work in the background that will give new meaning to the seemingly reckless actions of said protagonists.

Or LA is just as insane and irritating as we THOOLAH's believe and she'll end up blowing everything to bits just because her brain is fatally cross wired.

[kevinswatch]

I originally posted this in another thread but it's so applicable here I couldn't resist sharing it with my fellow THOOLAH members.

I'll try to keep from diving headlong into THOOLAH territory here but I seem to understand and relate to the point of this thread. I too feel that there is something missing. It's easy to point to Linden as the cause but perhaps there's more to it than that.

My first impression of the Las Chrons was a little negative in that it felt a little like when you base a sequel to a blockbuster movie on a supporting character. Rarely does this ever work. (Evan Almighty). I mean it's human nature to spend the entire film wondering why the award winning actor's character is no where to be found but the guy you kind of liked WHILE he was interacting with the original main character is up there on screen all by his lonesome. Makes you feel a little cheated. Especially if the other supporting characters from the first film are missing as well and you have to get acquainted with a bunch of new characters who are now interacting with the former second fiddle.

I guess what I'm saying is except for the Land, Linden some recognizable communities of characters and Lord Foul, the Last chrons is chock full of brand new characters that haven't as yet made me forget I'm missing Brinn, The First, Pitchwife, Mhoram, Quaan, Hile Troy, Elena, Bannor, Cail, Vain, Findail, Foamfollower and of course Thomas Covenant.

Yes, very good post. Excellent points. And I feel that I agree as I've read the Last Chronicles so far. As I think I've said before, I feel that one of the main letdowns of the Last Chrons is the side characters just don't seem to live up to the list of characters that Tom posted.

And personally, I got tired of reading, "I need to find my son" around the 300th time it was said...

Oh, and please be careful to watch for any Last Chronicles spoilers...-jay

[kevinswatch]

BTW Covenant spent two books trying to spare himself even if endangers the Arch/Land. Screw the Land, I'm a leper. I mention this because I don't think people realize how inconsistent they are when they come up with these rationalizations for dissing Linden.

I donno, I disagree. Most people hated Covenant at the begining of the series. For that very reason (aka he was an ass).

If the Watch existed when the first books where written, I'm sure there would be a Holy Order of Thomas Covenant Haters.

Until Linden redeems herself and stops bitching about her son, I see no reason to stop dissing her. -jay

[aTOMiC]

BTW Covenant spent two books trying to spare himself even if endangers the Arch/Land. Screw the Land, I'm a leper. I mention this because I don't think people realize how inconsistent they are when they come up with these rationalizations for dissing Linden.

I donno, I disagree. Most people hated Covenant at the begining of the series. For that very reason (aka he was an ass).

If the Watch existed when the first books where written, I'm sure there would be a Holy Order of Thomas Covenant Haters.

Until Linden redeems herself and stops bitching about her son, I see no reason to stop dissing her. -jay

Amen brother Jay.

[CovenantJr]

BTW Covenant spent two books trying to spare himself even if endangers the Arch/Land. Screw the Land, I'm a leper. I mention this because I don't think people realize how inconsistent they are when they come up with these rationalizations for dissing Linden.

I hated Covenant for two and a half books. Loathed him, even. Yet, after those two and a half books, I suddenly realised I understood him, and although I couldn't entirely forgive his previous actions, I could at least excuse them because I saw where he was coming from.

Linden has had five books now, and she's still barely beyond the point Covenant was at in LFB. Plus, I don't understand her. I mean, I understand her intellectually (even if I disagree with her), but I don't feel any empathy with her. Maybe it's because I don't have a child. Then again, I don't have leprosy either.

[aTOMiC]

I don't understand her. I mean, I understand her intellectually (even if I disagree with her), but I don't feel any empathy with her. Maybe it's because I don't have a child.

This comment gave rise to the realization of one of the fundemental problems I have with LA, especially with regard to her motivations in the Last Chrons.
LA adamantly proclaims that she needs to find her son repeatedly. For some reason I feel as though the connection/relationship between Linden and Jeremiah is under explained/explored in the narrative. I guess I just don't/can't believe how much she cares for this kid. I KNOW she does but I don't really feel it as I read the story. The Linden I've become familiar with in the Second Chrons. doesn't seem the type to have a natural child let alone adopt one so I'm not completely buying into her motivation to risk Universal Armageddon for this child.

Now if Jeremiah were somehow Linden and Covenant's natural son then I might believe she (Linden) had been fundamentally altered by experiencing childbirth, especially if said child was the product of her relationship with someone she cared for deeply. The Linden I'm accustomed to is so damaged by her past the she seems incapable of genuinely loving anyone...except Covenant who in some ways is a kindred spirit.

Now you guys are beginning to see some of the specific details of why I joined THOOLAH.

[kevinswatch]

Bingo. Hit the nail right on the head. I couldn't have explained it better myself. I've felt the same thing during the Last Chronicles. Like you said, we *know* that she cares for him (since SRD keeps saying so over and over again), but I just don't *feel* it at all. For me, it's hard to understand the level of love that Linden is feeling towards a kid who she adopted and who has remained absolutely unresponsive for 10 years. (Maybe since I don't have a kid of my own, I donno.) It is especially hard to believe or understand based on the Linden we knew from the 2nd Chronicles, like you said. So in a way it is almost like we are being asked to simply *accept* that Linden cares so deeply for this child that she is willing to do/rish *anything*, without ever really getting a good feeling for *why*.-jay

[High Lord Tolkien]

I agree with all of what Jay, CovenantJr and aTOMIC have said about Linden. Although I don't think that not having a kid minimizes your opinion in anyway.
We're not females either, does that me we can't emphasize with female characters in any movie or book?
Even what should have been the emotional climax of all time at

Spoiler

Earthroot

in FR (I forget the chapter) was just......off the mark because of Linden somehow.

TC grappling with the Illearth Stone while battling Foul was awesome.
His battle with Nom....outstanding.
Battling the Raver then standing in the Banefire......emotional.
His defeat of Foul....triumphant.

Linden's healthsense enabled her to save the day many times and when she wasn't trying to kill the Haruchai pledged to save her life she did ok.
Her healing of the Sunbane was just a pale shadow of what went on the chapter before.
She had the Ring and the Staff operating at full power, she was the mightiest being ever in the Land and yet.......she was tired.
Was she even in Runes? I just remember someone named Linden asking questions.
Come on Linden lovers, admit it, the best thing about Runes and FR was the last page in both books when

Spoiler

you-know-who showed up.

Linden just sucks.

THOOLAH!!!

I'm so glad that I get to yell THOOLAH!!!! on my 4000th post!!

[aTOMiC]

Congrats, HLT.

That was one fan-freaking-tastic 4000th post.


My 4000th post was probably some kind of smart-ass remark in Mallory's.

[Worm of Despite]

If Covenant wasn't so essential to this series, the most powerful moments wouldn't be with him, but every tense, punctuated moment in the 3rd Chrons is when he appears, like a bit of table scraps to tease us.

Spoiler

Look at the ending of Runes and Revenant; who shows up and make our jaws drop to the floor? Linden? NO I really think the first book could have condensed the first two's best moments and then resurrect TC at its end. A three-book series. That's what I would have done, but instead 2/3 of the book in Runes is devoted to Linden getting about 2 miles, and only at the end does she reach Revelstone. If we compare the speed of past books, especially the 1st Chrons, one is assaulted with a panorama of events and places; now I feel like I'm slowly walking through a museum.

You know, I'm just going to shut up, because I get this strange feeling that SRD is going to jump out of a flowerpot any second and club me to death.