THOOLAH has come to redeem your mortal soul.

[Relayer]

For some reason I feel as though the connection/relationship between Linden and Jeremiah is under explained/explored in the narrative. I guess I just don't/can't believe how much she cares for this kid. I KNOW she does but I don't really feel it as I read the story.
...
Now if Jeremiah were somehow Linden and Covenant's natural son then I might believe she (Linden) had been fundamentally altered by experiencing childbirth, especially if said child was the product of her relationship with someone she cared for deeply.

Now you guys are beginning to see some of the specific details of why I joined THOOLAH.

Like you said, we *know* that she cares for him (since SRD keeps saying so over and over again), but I just don't *feel* it at all. For me, it's hard to understand the level of love that Linden is feeling towards a kid who she adopted and who has remained absolutely unresponsive for 10 years. ... ... So in a way it is almost like we are being asked to simply *accept* that Linden cares so deeply for this child that she is willing to do/rish *anything*, without ever really getting a good feeling for *why*.

It feels like this issue is about the *writing* and not about Linden. Maybe SRD, who is a parent, just feels that everyone totally gets what it feels like to love their child, and so he doesn't see the need for more depth. FWIW, I don't have kids either, but I once dated a woman with 3 young children, but I never could make the leap to desire the joys, heartbreaks, and responsibilities of parenthood. So the point is, she once said to me "*everyone* wants this." -- what I realized is, it's such an ingrained belief for those who have children, that it doesn't need explaining. Maybe that's what SRD has unknowingly done too.

But this is not *Linden's* fault.

I don't really feel the connection Linden has for Jeremiah either. Nor do I really feel anything for Jere other than intellectual interest...

Spoiler

... especially since the one in FR really isn't him. We learn things about his abilities and power, but almost everything about HIM, emotionally, is a fake designed to manipulate her.

But on one point I'll say: In many ways, Jeremiah IS Linden and TC's son. Not physically, but spiritually; metaphysically. Linden went to the Land, learned to open her heart and love; truly made love with someone for the first times in her life. (reading WGW, I used to wonder 'what if she gets pregnant'). Jeremiah isn't just a random kid she adopted; he's a victim of Lord Foul (via the Community of Retribution) whose condition is a direct response to what happened in and before the 2nd Chrons. And to Linden, he represents *everything* that happened in those months.

In that way, I *understand* Linden. But like you guys, I don't feel it either.

[Menolly]

Read the Watch's L-rd Foul's short story Adrift in the first KW Anthology.

Maybe...maybe, that might help some here relate to Jeremiah's and Linden's relationship...

[deer of the dawn]

wayfriend wrote:

CovenantJr wrote:
Seems to me that Linden realises everything is suspect, but almost doesn't care. Her passion for the things she cares is so consuming that she takes a fairly cavalier, "if this is playing into Foul's hands, so be it!" attitude.

And you haven't caught on yet that that is the only correct response? It's not cavalier -- it's experience hard-won over two previous chronicles.

Well said, Wayfriend! That's what The Power That Preserves is all about. Mhoram recognized that it is the Oath of Peace that is the actual reason for the "insufficiency" of the Lords to truly get the power of lore behind them. Everyone is so afraid to get really passionate about something because it *might* end in desecration, that no one can do anything. The Oath of Peace is a national incarnation of the same self-doubt that keeps Covenant from trying to use the white gold.

Foul is a smart guy. He spends centuries studying things setting things up and awaiting developments. By the time he acts, there are no alternatives that do not "play into his hands" in some way. Should Linden be paralyzed into inaction? *cough like TC cough* No, dang it!!

SHOW ME THE TRUTH!!

That's what I'm talkin about.

[Relayer]

Everyone is so afraid to get really passionate about something because it *might* end in desecration, that no one can do anything. The Oath of Peace is a national incarnation of the same self-doubt that keeps Covenant from trying to use the white gold.

Spoiler

And it gets reincarnated in the attitude of the Masters towards any kind of power.

[wayfriend]

Yes, Relayer, it's obvious that they all belong to THOOLAH.

[aTOMiC]

Why any of us like or dislike Linden Avery is a gut emotional response to the character. You don't argue gut instinct, it just is. I don't think THOOLAH members are uniformly misunderstanding something wonderful about Linden and I don't think Linden's Army members are somehow missing the boat about what a batty dink she is.
SRD crafted this character (like many of his protagonists) to be flawed. That THOOLAH members have any emotional response at all suggests that SRD has achieved his aim. To create something or someone memorable. We may disagree as to why Linden is memorable but I think we can all admit that she's caught our attention. I've tried to explain why she rubs me the wrong way but it all sounds like intellectual justification. NONE of this is necessary. I dislike Linden because I simply dislike her. Period. End of discussion. No need to try to change my mind. The facts are the facts. I'm comfortable with it. I hope you all are too. Even if the character somehow earns my respect in the final chapters of the book I will have honestly disliked her up to that point and for my own genuine, emotional reasons.

Now I'm glad I was able to get that off my chest and be completely forthcoming and honest about my feelings.

My name is Thomas Cummins and I am a member of THOOLAH.

[dlbpharmd]

<sheds tear>

Tom, that was beautiful.

[[Syl]]

As someone who's pretty much stood on the sidelines throughout this whole Linden Avery thing, I have to say that I don't think that justification cuts it. Otherwise, you'd have a THOOHTH, THOOLFH, or even a THOOTCH (which I think I will have to captain, just because we can call ourselves HOOCH, have HOOCHER girls, and so forth). As you say, every character in the books is flawed, including The Land. Most give you a reason to hate, even despise them. Why this one?

From an observer's point of view, the whole THOOLAH thing looks like a protest. I mean, the two camps even have armbands of a sort.

[wayfriend]

I mean, the two camps even have armbands of a sort.

Hey -- they copied us. The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make: not real new things of its own.

[High Lord Tolkien]

I mean, the two camps even have armbands of a sort.

Hey -- they copied us. The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make: not real new things of its own.

Just like a Linden lover...complain, moan and whine.

You didn't show up on this, the first THOOLAH thread, until till page 4 mister!
I was making THOOLAH artwork from page 1.

And no one copied your Linden Army armband idea either as far as I know.

I fart in your general direction

[wayfriend]

And no one copied your Linden Army armband idea either as far as I know.

I fart in your general direction

Yeah, I gave Vain the artwork and asked for the Linden's Army item, and he wrote back: cool idea, I did one for THOOLAH too.

:shudder: That event still makes me tremble with righteous anger.

So go smell your own.

[deer of the dawn]

wayfriend wrote:

Yes, Relayer, it's obvious that they all belong to THOOLAH.

i.e. Foul, Roger, Esmer (dual membership), the croyel, the Theomach, Kastenessen, et al.

Quite a bunch.

[aTOMiC]

Where exactly is the Linden's Army discussion thread? I wonder how often fans post there.

[kevinswatch]

And no one copied your Linden Army armband idea either as far as I know.

I fart in your general direction

Yeah, I gave Vain the artwork and asked for the Linden's Army item, and he wrote back: cool idea, I did one for THOOLAH too.

:shudder: That event still makes me tremble with righteous anger.

So go smell your own.

Um, that was me.

Typical Linden Lover.

And I had plans to make a THOOLAH icon *long* before you came around, bub.

Where exactly is the Linden's Army discussion thread? I wonder how often fans post there.

Owned.

-jay

[wayfriend]

Um, that was me.

Ah, yes, I stand corrected. I offer my apologies to Vain.

[Relayer]

Where exactly is the Linden's Army discussion thread? I wonder how often fans post there.

We have no need of a support group to help us maintain our beliefs

[aTOMiC]

Where exactly is the Linden's Army discussion thread? I wonder how often fans post there.

We have no need of a support group to help us maintain our beliefs

Oh I understand.
I just mention it because Linden's Army members seem to populate this discussion for some reason so.....

[Relayer]

We stop by from time to time because we understand, and care about our brethren.

[Ur Dead]

Why is it everytime I see this thread, good ole Weird Al Yankovic parody song "Yoda" pops up?

And instead of Yoda, it's Thoolah!

[deer of the dawn]

(to the tune of the Kinks' "Lola")

She came to the Land when the Ur-Lord was stabbed
And some folks won't forgive her for what she grabbed
They're called Thooooooo-lah, Thoo-loo-loo-looooo-lah.
She bears the white gold and the Staff of Law
And I guess that just sticks in some folks' craw
They are Thooooooo-lah, Thoo-loo-loo-looooo-lah, Th'double-oh-THOOLAH.

Why do I, confirmed Lindensister, come here?? It's just so darn fun throwing and ducking tomatoes with you guys!!