The Devious Mr. Donaldson

[Zarathustra]

This is a thread to celebrate the hindsight devious answers given to us in the Gradual Interview by a true master of diversion. You know, hints given to us before the relevant book was written, where the author is purposely misleading us, while giving us the truth at the same time.

To get us started, here's one I just found:

Dustin A. Frost (Syl): Something I should have done the first time I submitted a question - Thank you, Mr. Donaldson. Covenant, Foamfollwer, and Mhoram gave me some insight in times that I really needed some.

"However, I will say that in my view the underlying purpose of all literature--and perhaps of all art--is to answer the question, 'What does it mean to be human?'"

With this statement foremost in mind, I'd like to ask a few questions concerning the Forestal:

First, what is the difference to you between similarly natured beings like Tolkien's Ents or McKillip's Queen of the Woods?

Second, other than being descended from the Elohim's power, what is the significance of the Forestals' power being expressed through music?

Last, is there any chance of seeing another Forestal in the Last Chronicles?

Well, I haven't encountered McKillip's Queen of the Woods, so I can't comment on that. But the Ents are clearly natural beings (natural to Middle Earth, anyway) who have essentially the same relationship with trees that shepherds do with sheep. The Forestals, on the other hand, are not natural in the same sense. They were created by the sentience of the forests, using the natural Earthpower of the trees and the knowledge of the Elohim. To that extent, at least, the Forestals are more truly the servants of the trees than the Ents are. The shepherd is the "mind" which tends the sheep, whereas in the Land the forests are the "mind" which articulates itself--and acts--through the Forestals. Is that clear?

As to the significance of the fact that the Forestals express power through music: well, how else could they do it? Through flame and blade, as humans (in the Land) do? Unlikely--not to mention potentially self-destructive. Through physical action (as the Ents mobilize the trees)? Again, unlikely. The trees are the mind, and the mind--any mind--only acts through instruments (hands, legs, and all extensions thereof). Remember, this isn't an sf world. Concepts like ESP and telekenesis aren't options. In the Land, one being can only control or influence another through possession. So what's left?

Of course, this doesn't answer your question about "significance." But I don't ordinarily think in terms of "significance." I think about trying to tell the truth. I don't know of any other way to address the question, "What does it mean to be human?" And the truth here, as I see it, is that music is the most natural and appropriate way for the forests of the Land to express themselves.

As for seeing another Forestal in "The Last Chronicles": how is that actually possible?

Spoiler

(No, don't tell me. I already know the answer.)

(05/13/2004)

You know he had to be smiling when he wrote that!

Spoiler

He knew what was going to happen in FR, but couldn't tell us.

[lurch]

Malik..whenever any one answers a question with a question..always explore as many answers as you can imagine..One of them is right.

[wayfriend]

I've commented on Donaldson's Lord Foulish characteristic of being misleading with the truth often myself. Quotes from the GI that I remember:

I'm often deliberately misleading when people ask me about such things.

(06/20/2004)

Some days I simply can't resist my impulse to tease. I get an entirely malicious pleasure out of creating misleading expectations. Of course, that's one of the keys to my writing in general. I work hard at setting up expectations which I intend to both frustrate and fulfill in unforeseeable ways.

(01/20/2006)

[wayfriend]

I am (I admit this freely) actively trying to mess with your expectations.

Malicious, I know. But writers are like that. <grin>

(06/16/2005)

[Rocksister]

Yea, I recently caught up on the last two months of GI entries, and I love this about SRD. He never gives anything away, not fully at least. Would you really want that? Would you? No, that's like telling someone what the end of a movie will be like that they have not seen yet. What fun is there in going to see it then? SRD knows what he is doing. And he's like a bad little boy, too. I can read it in the GI. He won't exactly LIE to us, but he will send our thoughts racing down one path, while he skips along on a different one. Gotta love him. I'd love to meet the man and just talk to him for hours. He's got to be one fun brother.

[Zarathustra]

Samadhi, of course, wasn't *killed* by Honninscrave and Nom: the Raver was "rent," torn to shreds. Not the same thing at all, especially for a being which exists almost entirely as "spirit." So it seems natural--doesn't it?--that absorbing the scraps of a Raver would have a profound effect on Nom. But exactly what that effect might or will be I'm not prepared to say. However, you might ask yourself this: are the Sandgorgons inherently savage (and destructive)? or were they made savage by their imprisonment? or is the whole idea of their savagery simply a perception on the part of the vulnerable Bhrathair?

(05/13/2004)

Anyone want to take a guess?

[aliantha]

Samadhi, of course, wasn't *killed* by Honninscrave and Nom: the Raver was "rent," torn to shreds. Not the same thing at all, especially for a being which exists almost entirely as "spirit." So it seems natural--doesn't it?--that absorbing the scraps of a Raver would have a profound effect on Nom. But exactly what that effect might or will be I'm not prepared to say. However, you might ask yourself this: are the Sandgorgons inherently savage (and destructive)? or were they made savage by their imprisonment? or is the whole idea of their savagery simply a perception on the part of the vulnerable Bhrathair?

(05/13/2004)

Anyone want to take a guess?

Hmm, I'll take option B with a splash of C. And I'm betting that those Raver scraps are workin' on that learned savagery, and the sense of injustice engendered by the unfair imprisonment. Hoo boy, this could get ugly...

[AjK]

Samadhi, of course, wasn't *killed* by Honninscrave and Nom: the Raver was "rent," torn to shreds. Not the same thing at all, especially for a being which exists almost entirely as "spirit." So it seems natural--doesn't it?--that absorbing the scraps of a Raver would have a profound effect on Nom. But exactly what that effect might or will be I'm not prepared to say. However, you might ask yourself this: are the Sandgorgons inherently savage (and destructive)? or were they made savage by their imprisonment? or is the whole idea of their savagery simply a perception on the part of the vulnerable Bhrathair?

Honninscrave's containment of the raver and subsequent sacrifice was an exceptionally powerful part of TCTC for me. The struggle for control of Honninscrave's body is a scene that always plays out very gaphically in my imagination when I read it ... Honninscrave's strength of character and spirit; the surprise, frustration and rage of the raver as it realizes the gravity of its situation. One of my favorites!

When I originally read WGW I felt that the rending of the raver was the spiritual equivalent to killing a physical body. In other words, it was effectively destroyed. Over time, I came to feel that it was not destroyed but rather that the nature of its existence had been altered so that it was no longer what it had been. My fear now is that a rent or shredded raver may actually be free to do damage in the same way that the fragments of the Illearth Stone did. While no longer a sentient unique entity, the rent pieces of raver could continue to enable Foul's plans. In other words, the changes introduced by Nom's "consumption" of the raver could ultimately result in changes that serve Foul's purposes. It will be interesting to see what the Sandgorgons' objectives in the Land are now.

As to the savagery of the Sandgorgons, I differentiate between savagery and power that has destructive capacity. In WGW Nom's great physical power was put to very positive use. But just like for High Lord Kevin, the Sandgorgons' tremendous power has the capacity for desecration and destruction. Have the Sandgorgons succumbed to despair? I don't think so, but I bet Foul is trying. Do they have motivations for their actions independent of the Land's need? I think so. Regardless, I am hoping that we learn the name of another Sandgorgon.

[wayfriend]

“There is that in the heart of the Earth which cries for ruin.

“The Sandgorgons are the incarnation of that cry.

“Since before memory, we roamed this part of the Earth, moving from one place to another as chance and whim allowed. To us, destruction was freedom, and creation was an offense which we eradicated wherever we found it. We trampled trees to splinters, and ground splinters into dust. Mountains we threw down to remove them from our way. Without the mountains to catch them, the winds no longer paused to drop their burden of rain. Then we delighted in the dessication of the desert. The buildings of the Bhrathair – aye, and many others, nameless to us – we smashed down whenever our path led through them. Nothing survived in the desert once chance put it in our way.

“There was no thought in this. We were never beings like yourself, with thoughts and the need to examine them. There was only the expression of our being.

“That changed when Kasreyn came to Bhrathairain.

[Zarathustra]

Hmmm . . . lots to think about, WF.

I just noticed both of my quotes come from the same GI day. Weird coincidence. Seems he was thinking forward that day . . .

[danlo]

Thanks everybody from controlling the urge to use any possible 3rd Chrons spoilers-d

[Zarathustra]

Thanks everybody from controlling the urge to use any possible 3rd Chrons spoilers-d

Are you implying there is a spoiler here?

[Farm Ur-Ted]

There's a 3d chronicles?!? WTF?

[danlo]

Yeah there is. Many people don't know this but Terry Brooks will be writing it under Donaldson's name-now that's devious...

[Relayer]

“There is that in the heart of the Earth which cries for ruin.

“The Sandgorgons are the incarnation of that cry.

“Since before memory, we roamed this part of the Earth, moving from one place to another as chance and whim allowed. To us, destruction was freedom, and creation was an offense which we eradicated wherever we found it. We trampled trees to splinters, and ground splinters into dust. Mountains we threw down to remove them from our way. Without the mountains to catch them, the winds no longer paused to drop their burden of rain. Then we delighted in the dessication of the desert. The buildings of the Bhrathair – aye, and many others, nameless to us – we smashed down whenever our path led through them. Nothing survived in the desert once chance put it in our way.

“There was no thought in this. We were never beings like yourself, with thoughts and the need to examine them. There was only the expression of our being.

“That changed when Kasreyn came to Bhrathairain.

Where's this quote from? I don't remember it...

[Reisheiruhime]

Yeah there is. Many people don't know this but Terry Brooks will be writing it under Donaldson's name-now that's devious...

No. Just... no. A thousand more times no... Although a nice, tall, often grim Druid wouldn't be totally unwelcome... Smack some sense or some Prozac into my Esmer...

[Zarathustra]

Another interesting GI answer, in hindsight.

Fist

We've been debating ak-Haru Kenaustin Ardenol's origin. Some think the Guardian was not aHKA until Brinn "conceived" of him that way. Some think aHKA was not originally a Haruchai. Some (me think aHKA was always Haruchai, and took on the job as the Guardian after Berek met him somewhere or other, and explained how important the job was.

More interesting, I think, is the question of how the Haruchai even know of Kenaustin Ardenol's existence. Nothing in the record (i.e. the first six "Covenant" books) suggests that the Haruchai were aware of the Lords in the Land prior to Kevin's time--and if they had ever had any dealings with, say, Berek, they certainly *would* have been aware of the Lords. So we can probably assume: a) Kenaustin Ardenol him/her/itself was not Haruchai; b) the Haruchai know of the existence of this being (which, by the way, is not the same as knowing of the existence of the Guardian of the One Tree) through some interaction outside the known history of the Land; and c) this interaction gave rise to the supreme Haruchai honorific "ak-Haru". More than that I can't say at the moment. The Earth is a whole lot bigger than the Land, and (like the Land) it's full of stories. I can't possibly tell them all.

(08/23/2004)

I think this answer was discussed in some of the LC forums, so I won't discuss it here. But it's interesting reading after what we know.

[StevieG]

Was it SRD that said that the best way to deceive is to 'almost' tell the truth? Not quite the full truth, but something close to it. This is the best way to mislead someone... It seems to translate from his stories to the GI! The devious Mr Donaldson...

One of the great pleasures I have gained from reading his stories is that I can almost NEVER predict what's about to happen (and I must admit, I don't particularly want to predict what's going to happen) - I just don't think on his wavelength. My thought process seems to be far removed from his - what seems obvious to him takes me a long time to figure out. I like this, and hence I enjoy the stories.

In the first Chronicles, I couldn't understand most of the decisions Thomas Covenant made - his choices, actions seemed foreign to me - but also so obvious (in hindsight). For me, it was unpredictable, and obvious - the story felt like it couldn't have happened any other way.