From Unbelief to Belief: Where was the Transition?

[DukkhaWaynhim]

I would suggest that the moment that Thomas Covenant believes is the moment he faces the fact that raping Lena was a cruel thing to do. I mean 16 is a bit young for that. But the point is that he sort of woke up right then to accept that his actions in the land had impact.

That is a very good point, Zeph.

Does anyone know exactly when TC's attack of conscience occurs in earnest? I know it isn't during the initial trip to Revelstone--which is why I believe this is also the part of the book that determines whether the first-time reader actually continues or throws it down in disgust for TC's antihero nature--he is both bastard & tortured protagonist.
Some people are so turned off by this ("where are the Ewoks and giggling floating fairies?") very dark turn that they just shut down and never give it a chance.

DukkhaWaynhim
[Weird, wacky, and workin' it]

[Furls Fire]

Covenant regrets doing it right after it happens. He vomits into the Mithil when he realizes what he has done. He even says to Atarian that he hopes the Lords will punish him.

But, the pivot comes in Manhome. When he goes on that hunger strike and is all withdrawn into himself. What brings him out of it is Winhome Gay, (who later becomes Manethrall Rue), she reminds him of Lena which sends him into a rage and causes him to make his bargain with the Ranyhyn. "I did that to her!!!!!"

I honestly don't think that when he realizes the rape of Lena was wrong was when he chose to believe, because he knew it was wrong right after it happened.

I would say that he leaned toward actual belief at the end of The Power that Preserves while talking to the creator after defeated Foul. But, that is uncertain because he never really says he believes it.

In the Second Chrons. The whole thing becomes irrelavent, at least it is for Thomas. He is so determined to save the Land that the belief in it doesn't even matter anymore. However, our belief in the Land being real is strengthened by the mere presence of Linden, and the crossing over of Foul in the bonfire to the "real" world. SRD himself said that in the Second Chrons, belief or unbelief is no longer a factor in the story...It just isn't important anymore.

Hence, "The Unbeliever" portion of the title "The Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant" is dropped.

[DukkhaWaynhim]

I would say that he leaned toward actual belief at the end of The Power that Preserves while talking to the creator after defeated Foul. But, that is uncertain because he never really says he believes it.

I think Furls makes a good distinction. We maybe have been providing evidence of the elements that lead to his Belief, like stepping stones that eventually build a bridge. So, the philosophically-sharpened question is this: when are enough stepping stones in place to first make the crossing?

In the Second Chrons. The whole thing becomes irrelavent, at least it is for Thomas. He is so determined to save the Land that the belief in it doesn't even matter anymore. However, our belief in the Land being real is strengthened by the mere presence of Linden, and the crossing over of Foul in the bonfire to the "real" world. SRD himself said that in the Second Chrons, belief or unbelief is no longer a factor in the story...It just isn't important anymore.

I agree.

Hence, "The Unbeliever" portion of the title "The Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant" is dropped.

Excellent!! I never even noticed the significance!!

DukkhaWaynhim
[Weird, warped, and walking Tall]

[Zephalephelah]

Covenant regrets doing it right after it happens. He vomits into the Mithil when he realizes what he has done. He even says to Atarian that he hopes the Lords will punish him.

But, the pivot comes in Manhome. When he goes on that hunger strike and is all withdrawn into himself. What brings him out of it is Winhome Gay, (who later becomes Manethrall Rue), she reminds him of Lena which sends him into a rage and causes him to make his bargain with the Ranyhyn. "I did that to her!!!!!"

I honestly don't think that when he realizes the rape of Lena was wrong was when he chose to believe, because he knew it was wrong right after it happened.

I would say that he leaned toward actual belief at the end of The Power that Preserves while talking to the creator after defeated Foul. But, that is uncertain because he never really says he believes it.

In the Second Chrons. The whole thing becomes irrelavent, at least it is for Thomas. He is so determined to save the Land that the belief in it doesn't even matter anymore. However, our belief in the Land being real is strengthened by the mere presence of Linden, and the crossing over of Foul in the bonfire to the "real" world. SRD himself said that in the Second Chrons, belief or unbelief is no longer a factor in the story...It just isn't important anymore.

Hence, "The Unbeliever" portion of the title "The Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant" is dropped.

That is significant. I never really considered it that much myself.




I think you make a strong case, but I'd rather that Thomas fought with himself to find the answer. He went on a hunger strike against himself to try to understand something that he could hold onto. What he found wasn't what he expected and was probably furthest from his mind when he began, but still he agreed at the end that the land was real and his choices had real effects on real people. His comments on living in a dream became much less of a defense and more of a way to communicate his odd sense of humor.

For me, the most important part of all this is that Thomas was almost sure he was dreaming in a coma in a hospital in his own world as a result of a traffic accident. So at that time, he felt that his actions had no bearing at all & no real or lasting effect on anyone.

Yes, you're right that he felt that what he had done was wrong immediately afterward, but only in the sense of how anyone would feel contempt for their actions in a dream. I just had a dream that I was having sex with someone else & in that dream I felt bad for my woman. I felt like she might find out and she would express herself & there would be pain in our lives because of what I had done. Just because you're dreaming doesn't mean you are invulerable to your own morals. It just means you have and take opportunities you would not otherwise entertain.

Thomas still expected to get away with it. He still expected to wake up.


Again, you make a strong case. It's just that I would rather that the hero won his belief through examining himself through the pain of hunger, rather than through victory over Foul.

Besides, when they try to call him back to the land in the Power that Preserves, he's trying to save that girl. He tells Morham to send him back. He knows that he isn't dreaming because nothing had happened to him. He didn't hit his head or anything.

And in the Illearth War, we see a sober Covenant when the main character is Hile Troy. Thomas doesn't go on & on about the land being a dream, although he does talk about it. What he does instead is tell Hile Troy how Foul has everything manipulated beyond his control so that he is merely a puppet and that in the end he will fail everyone and all his promises he's made will cause him harm. The dream references are more like a defense he's built up, but he does try to do the right thing & he is an active participant rather than someone watching a movie, or a dream.

I would just prefer that it was his choice to believe rather than circumstance.

[Fist and Faith]

I do think that the conclusion he came to in the end was very Hermetic in nature: that the inner world is connected to the outer world and they reflect each other - and it really doesn't matter if you come to be in harmony with your inner world or the outer; once you achieve one, you achieve both.

This reminds me of a couple passages by Eknath Easwaran:

Sankhya is not trying to describe physical reality; it is analyzing consciousness, knowledge, for the sole purpose of unraveling the human being's true identity. So it does not begin with the material universe as something different and separate from the mind that perceives it. It does not talk about sense objects outside us and senses within and then try to get the two together. It begins with one world of experience. Sense objects and senses are not separate; they are two aspects of the same event. Mind, energy, and matter are a continuum, and the universe is not described as it might be in itself, but as it presents itself to the human mind. As they say in the "new physics," it is not just an observable universe but a participatory universe.

Brahmavidya and conventional science both begin when a person finds that the world of sense impressions, so transient and superficial, is not enough in itself to satisfy the desire for meaning. Then one begins to stand back a little from the senses and look below the surface show of life in search of underlying connection. But the sages of the Upanishads wanted more than explanations of the outside world. They sought principles that would unify and explain the whole of human experience: including, at the same time, the world within the mind. If the observer observes through the medium of consciousness, and the world too is observed in consciousness, should not the same laws apply to both?

[DukkhaWaynhim]

Wow, Fist... that's pretty hefty stuff.

All part of the multifaceted coolness that keeps me coming back to the Watch.

DukkhaWaynhim
[Weird, warped, and Western]

[DukkhaWaynhim]

And in the Illearth War, we see a sober Covenant when the main character is Hile Troy. Thomas doesn't go on & on about the land being a dream, although he does talk about it. What he does instead is tell Hile Troy how Foul has everything manipulated beyond his control so that he is merely a puppet and that in the end he will fail everyone and all his promises he's made will cause him harm. The dream references are more like a defense he's built up, but he does try to do the right thing & he is an active participant rather than someone watching a movie, or a dream.

You know, Zeph, that's a pretty cool point. Hile Troy's section is the first time in the Chronicles (and one of the few overall) where we switch to a POV other than TC's, which the reader can infer as acceptance of the reality of the Land.

(Of course, TC would just bluster about Hile Troy being a figment of his imagination, but we know better.)

But it's also the first time when we get an outside view of TC (the impressions he gives without getting to see all the internal motivations behind the actions). Very interesting...

DukkhaWaynhim
[Weird, warped, and Whassup!]