Fatal Revenant, Part II, Chapter 1 - From the Depths

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Fatal Revenant, Part II, Chapter 1 - From the Depths

Post by [Syl] »

First, I'd like to briefly talk about the title of the section - "Victims and Enactors of Despite." At first glance, the two categories would be assumed to be separate. For instance, Avery as victim and Roger as enactor. I doubt many of us would accept that, though. Into which category would Jeremiah fall? And what about the man, Covenant, who William A. Senior described as "an odd admixture of scapegoat and hero, of victim and victimizer." And then there are numerous examples of those victimized by Foul to serve his needs, including Pietten, Dukkha, and so on, until we're describing whole populations such as the Bloodguard or the Giants. No, that's pretty much Foul's m.o. - turn the victim into agent.

So if being a victim of Despite can lead one to in turn be a victimizer (cue the Tool video) and "It boots nothing to avoid his snares..." then what hope is there?

Answer: Don'tbe a victim. (third question down) Who succeeds at this and who does not I can't say, though it doesn't look good for Linden at the beginning of this chapter.

"From the Depths" Ok, so now I'll monotonously go over the meaning of this title. First, the literal. This chapter starts with Linden emerging from Rivenrock specifically and Melenkurion Skyweir, generally, the latter being the deepest, most potent source of Earthpower in the land. I'm not a visually-oriented person, so I couldn't say that the heart of Melenkurion Skyweir is physically deeper than say, the banes buried beneath Gravin Threndor. Thematically, though, I'd say the former is deeper when it comes to the true essence of the Land. And what does it say about the Land that such things are both found deep beneath it? If we personify the Land, I'd say that our greatest strengths and the darkest, evilest parts of us come from deep within.

Now, the metaphorical. I couldn't shake the feeling that this was a biblical reference, and after a bit of search I found Psalm 130 - "Out of the depths I cry to you, O Lord." If it helps, 'from' and 'out of' are the same word in Hebrew - 'm'. I wouldn't say that this is definitely the source of the chapter's name, but it's a good starting point. Why from the depths? According to scripture, the proper location to pray is from a low place. This could symbolize humility or the abject position those who would pray for deliverance would find themselves. No one seeks redemptions from the heights, I think.

So it is only from the depths of despair that we can be saved. Or to quote Chuck Palahniuk, '"It's only after you've lost everything," Tyler says, "that you're free to do anything." And I use this not just as a Fight Club fanboy, but for the first half's similarity to another quote I'm sure you can all remember.

At the beginning of the chapter, Linden's hitting rock bottom. We know Donaldson's trying to hammer this in with such lines as the second sentence:
The trees here had fallen into shadow, and with the loss of the sun, the air had grown cold enough to bite into her bereaved throat and lungs. Winter held sway over the Deep...
And I have to wonder if this is as much of a description of Linden as it is the environment:
...the roots of the Skyweir no longer trembled. The watercourse was nearly empty now. Deep springs slowly filled the spaces which she had formed under the peak.
Damage was done to her by Roger and Jeremiah, and she has done damage to Melenkurion Skyweir and perhaps herself. And if Donaldson didn't want us to think she was damaged, I don't think he'd repeatedly mention her wounded hand (considering how such a wound goes against the nature of her profession and would also seem to imply that she is diminished as a result. how much good is a healer with a sliced-up hand?). I also believe Donaldson is giving a bit of foreshadowing here by saying, basically, that Linden is doomed to "stumble[] through the wreckage until she found her way out of the world of ruin."

So, she continues to stumble her way along. But we're also supposed to know that she has been transformed (which I believe was the name of a chapter here recently), having gone through her own kind of caamora. "...some essential part of her had been extinguished, burned away by battles which surpassed her strength. She was no longer the woman who had endured Roger's cruelties for Jeremiah's sake." Throughout the rest of the chapter Donaldson compares her to granite, which is hard and formed deep beneath the earth by magma, possibly under great pressure.

Yet she appears to want to die. Not entirely surprising, since where else is there to go when you've hit bottom? But of course she can't do it, so she thinks maybe Wildwood will do it for her.

The Staff of Law also appears to be a reflection of Linden Avery. Like her, it has been heavily exerted and is now a charred-looking black (internally speaking, of course), curiously described as "fuligin." As a Gene Wolfe fan, this word jumped out at me. It's the color the Torturers Guild in the Book of the New Sun wear, and it is described as darker than black or true black. It's not a word that you'd be able to find in the dictionary, though in a very Donaldsonian way is derived from 'fuliginous' which means 'sooty.' I've seen a lot of props given to Donaldson by other authors, but it's cool to see him paying a bit of homage to an author I'm incredibly fond of.

As she walks towards Garroting Deep, she replays in her mind all the hints she should've picked up on. The Ranyhyn warning her, Esmer, the Mahdoubt, the things said and unsaid by the Theomach. Basically, the same stuff I was yelling at her (except for the Ranyhyn, I didn't think back that far). Not that any of this makes her think of doing anything now, even while acknowledging that "the Land's tale was not done." Maybe she finds comfort in this and starts to get it together for a bit when she thinks that "While [Covenant's] spirit endured, she could refuse to believe that the Despiser would achieve victory" (well, we'll just have to see about that). Following that thought, she starts to believe that there might even be a way of saving Jeremiah.

Then she stumbles on the Mahdoubt who has a fire going. In Garroting Deep. After Linden's questions about why Roger and the croyel didn't kill her are twice ignored (priorities?), she finally tells her she should put the fire out. Ok, so the Mahdoubt's not really worried about it, saying, "...in her youth, such concnerns may perchance have vexed her, but her old bones have felt the full measure of years." Basically, "I'm too old to be worried by some mere Forestal garotting me." Of course, my answer to that is 'then maybe you're old enough to figure out that maybe that fire's not all that necessary.' But hey, we need to get Caerroil Wildwood here somehow, so...

For now, we just wait for it. Meanwhile, Linden has some soup and springwine while the Mahdoubt gets us all caught up on motive, like Velma telling us all why Roger was wearing the Covenant mask. They needed to get her away before she figured out what she was doing and got some real help, they're afraid of Anele, they wanted her to hand over the White Gold, and maybe she'd even knock over the Arch while she was at it. And they would've gotten away with it, too, if it wasn't for... well, for Linden not being a complete sucker, I guess.

One bit I did find interesting was the Mahdoubt's line "Such errant evil craves its own preservation more than it desires the ruin of Life and Time." Have I missed the part where the Arch being broken doesn't pretty much kill everyone but Lord Foul, who gets to escape his prison? I assume there's an escape plan of some sort, but... It made sense for Foul to want to bring down the arch, but considering Roger went through a lot of work to get here and the croyel isn't suicidal...

Anyway, the Mahdoubt says that Roger and Jeremiah's chief goal was probably just to hurt her. Why? Lot of trouble to go through just to be, well, dicks on an epic scale. No, I think this refers back to the name of the section. Despite the Mahdoubt's claim that they wanted her to either hand over the ring or knock over the arch by the confluence of forces (we know that's not going to happen less than halfway through the Last Chronicles) required to oppose them, I doubt that they left entirely empty-handed. Snares upon snares, I say.

Finally Wildwood shows up, though his song precedes him. It's a song with shape that can move among the leaves and branches, music that is light. And it coalesces to form Wildwood. This is the same impressive figure from The Illearth War, from the white robe right down to the gaze that can knock you down (I had a feeling it was a lot less literal in the First Chronicles). He doesn't appear to be as angry this time. It's almost like his asking the Mahdoubt about the fire is perfunctory. No 'what the hell you think you're doing?' but 'just making sure you're not burning the place down.' Then again, maybe it was Mhoram singing what was probably a bastardized version of his song that set him off. Since Wildwood can be and is everywhere throughout the forest... since he expresses his power by music and is perhaps in a fundamental sense an expression of Music....

In a response to a question I asked in the GI, Donaldson said:
And the truth here, as I see it, is that music is the most natural and appropriate way for the forests of the Land to express themselves.

As for seeing another Forestal in "The Last Chronicles": how is that actually possible? (No, don't tell me. I already know the answer.)
So if by getting the song wrong Mhoram was incorrectly expressing Wildwood, well that's a bit more sensible than some music geek getting mad about you not getting the lyrics to Karma Police exactly right.

But I digress.

Is it just me, or is the Mahdoubt the most passive/aggressive character ever to grace the Chronicles? Sure, she talks to the "Great One" about respect and all that, but doesn't what she says boil down to "'Ey, we're walkin' here! Whatchu gonna do about it, tough guy? Figured it out, didja? Well, why don't we get down to business then."??"

I'd like to take a close look at Wildwood's words where he says:
I am the Land's Creator's hold... She wears the mark of fecundity and long grass. Also she has paid the price of woe. And the sigil of the Land's need has been placed upon her."
This isn't the last time, I think, that Wildwood refers to an almost direct relationship with the Creator. Perhaps not exactly personal, but that he stands in his place. The Creator's lieutenant. Also of note (heh), is that a hold can also be defined as "The sustaining of a note longer than its indicated time value." And while she thinks that the mark he's referring to is her wounded hand, I'm not so sure. It would've been a good question for her to ask while she was standing around, anyway.

An interesting bit from the Mahdoubt:
But she has acquired neither wisdom nor knowledge adequate to contest that which appears needful. Others do so, to their cost. The Mahdoubt does not.
She seems to be saying that the Mahdoubt is a more 'go with the flow' kind of Insequent, while others use what they've learned to do it 'their way.' I wonder if this has much to do with her being the only female Insequent we've met so far.

Come to find out, Troy wasn't the only person Wildwood did a solid for, and getting something in return is part of the deal. But since Linden didn't ask for anything, all he asks is that Linden try to find an answer for his question - "How may life endure in the Land, if the Forestals fail and perish, as the must, and naught remains to ward its most vulnerable treasures. We were formed to stand sas guardians in the Creator's stead. Must it transpire that beauty and truth shall pass utterly when we are gone?"

When she agrees to find an answer, Wildwood floats the staff over to himself. Of the staff he says, "This blackness is lamentable... but I will not alter it. Its import lies beyond my ken." Mine too, but I wonder if it has something to do with Vain. He then proceeds to add the missing runes to the staff, burning them in with music. The runes are described as "sequacious and acute" (as opposed to insequent-ial?). The staff is now complete, and perhaps significantly, perhaps not, Linden's hand is healed.

Wildwood leaves (heh?), his song being called a "threnody" (first appearing in LFB around the Rite of Spring, IIRC). Linden Avery finds herself uplifted from the depths she had been in previously.

Ok, so this getting a bit long. I know it's almost over, but I'm going to leave off here for tonight and pick it back up tomorrow. If anyone wants to wrap it up, they're welcome, as the bulk of my interest in this chapter left with the Forestal. I'm also not too happy with the rest of it for reasons that I'll go into tomorrow.
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Post by dlbpharmd »

Damn, great dissection Syl!
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Re: Fatal Revenant, Part II, Chapter 1 - From the Depths

Post by AjK »

Great job, Syl! This made for a very enjoyable read.
Syl wrote:If we personify the Land, I'd say that our greatest strengths and the darkest, evilest parts of us come from deep within.
I agree. I know that some readers feel that the Land is a pre-existing, "real" physical external reality whereas others feel that it is an internal dream or state of mind (or conjoined state of mind in the case of the second & third chronicles). I am somewhere in the middle. My view is that the Land is an actual external reality, but one that is manifested by the minds of TC and LA (and Hile Troy for that matter.) Anyway my point is that I can very much appreciate your statement regarding personification.
Syl wrote:"fuligin." As a Gene Wolfe fan, this word jumped out at me. It's the color the Torturers Guild in the Book of the New Sun wear, and it is described as darker than black or true black. ... I've seen a lot of props given to Donaldson by other authors, but it's cool to see him paying a bit of homage to an author I'm incredibly fond of.
This way an eye popper for me too since the BooK of the New Sun series is right up there with TCTC for me. LOL, Severian is my avatar over at Ahira's Hangar (where I never seem to have time to go. :oops: ) Not for everyone but I could reread that series 1,000 times.
Syl wrote:Finally Wildwood shows up, though his song precedes him. ... He doesn't appear to be as angry this time. It's almost like his asking the Mahdoubt about the fire is perfunctory. No 'what the hell you think you're doing?' but 'just making sure you're not burning the place down.'
Morinmoss didn't seem to mind the Unfettered Healer's undergroud cooking fire in TPTP either. It seems that Wildwood has met the Mahdoubt before and is on good terms with her (as good as a Forestal could get with a human I guess.) I thought it was funny when she offered him some food. Almost like an inside joke between them.
Syl wrote:I'd like to take a close look at Wildwood's words where he says:
I am the Land's Creator's hold...
This isn't the last time, I think, that Wildwood refers to an almost direct relationship with the Creator. Perhaps not exactly personal, but that he stands in his place.
Great observation. It would be interesting to understand this relationship futher. Obviously the Creator earned his* title, but I believe it was the consciousness of the one forest itself that first brought the Forestals into being. [* I am not a fan of assigning gender to creator beings, but since this instance seems to be associated with the old man in the ochre robe I guess I will go with "his".]
Syl wrote:"How may life endure in the Land, if the Forestals fail and perish, as the must, and naught remains to ward its most vulnerable treasures. We were formed to stand sas guardians in the Creator's stead. Must it transpire that beauty and truth shall pass utterly when we are gone?"
What a very wistfully sad quote. Don't we often fear that all the good things in life will be "taken over" or outlasted by the bad? I wonder why that is. It must mean we care.
Syl wrote:Also of note (heh) ... Wildwood leaves (heh?)
You are killing me. :roll: :lol:
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Post by matrixman »

Excellent summary, Syl! *bows deeply*

Really like your comments about the depths of Melenkurion Skyweir vs. the depths of Gravin Threndor.

:( Sorry that things kinda fell flat for you after Wildwood's departure, but I think this is one of the greatest chapters in all the Chronicles. It's so serene after the chaos and fury of Melenkurion Skyweir. The pace is perfect, allowing us (and Linden) to recover our wits. A thought: maybe Linden, in her present state, is what High Lord Elena would've resembled had she survived her own ordeal at Skyweir. Exhausted and numb, deadened in spirit.

As AjK mentioned, the special emotional quality of this chapter also reminds me of The Power That Preserves -- that episode where a delirious Covenant stumbles into Morinmoss and is healed by one of the Unfettered. Linden, while not delirious, is certainly dazed as she too enters a forest - though Garroting Deep is the last place I'd want to be stumbling into. And in my mind, the Mahdoubt's cozy fire and cooking is an echo of that long-dead Unfettered's humble abode.

So I read this chapter with a mixture of sadness and gladness: sad about Linden's emotional ruin, and glad for the Mahdoubt's comforting presence.

The subsequent encounter with Caerroil Wildwood is, well, simply magical. I love the hushed reverence that has always informed SRD's portrayal of the Forestals. How fitting it is that a Forestal should "complete" the fashioning of Linden's Staff of Law. Meanwhile, Wildwood's knowledge that even the age of the Forestals must one day end is profoundly sad.

So, while the Melenkurion Skyweir chapters rocked me, I treasure this one for the compassion of the Mahdoubt and the wisdom of Wildwood.

I see Wildwood and the Mahdoubt almost as surrogate parents for Linden. That jives with what Duchess said about family relationships being important to how the Last Chronicles will play out.
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Post by lurch »

..Nice Syl..very nice calm and cool dissect. Yes, at the beginning Linden is Void,,as close to walking dead as the author can put her without physically killing her off. And thats as it has to be,,I stated in the previous chapter that Linden has chased off what she is Not, leaving her without what she IS. She begins this chapter as close to being NoThing as possible.

She asks Mahdoubt why didn't they just kill me and just as importantly,,why didn't you tell me, you knew who they really are. Mahdoubt in her round about way suggests it had to be so,,Linden Needed to go thru the experience. The ability to separate Illusion from Truth is Learned,,a painful but not forgotten learning. The dark of her experience is still with her and Wildwood shows her a Lesson of it. The Death of Garroting Deep is made equivalent to her depth of vengeance she seeks. She is made aware of it.

But Linden is stuck millennia out of " her time". Lindens knows Mahdoubt is the way. Linden is left to figure out the MYSTERY on her own. And She Does!
As the author puts it,, with out any Logic at all,,Linden intuits the solution to the Mystery.

Thus Linden begins to fill the Void of Who she IS..one step at a Time.

This Chapter is one heck of Great Metaphor. Yes, this is a Key Chapter to grasp in its Surreal.(" hallucinations and dreams") Heck, its The Realization,, the Surreal Formula, laid out in metaphoric tableau. Linden Solves A Mystery..and CREATES a solution from what she discovered by the Intuitive . She Rises Above the fantastic visual polarity of the Silver Wildwood and his Black forest..his Threnody and the Death it brings, with making a promise to answer a paradoxical conundrum without any idea on how..but takes the first step by exploring her Intuition...and added just a little Love. Thats all it took.

Its no mistake that the flannel is red,,a hue half way between the opposites White and Black. As far as parables go..this chapter is as good as any i've read in the Good Book. Even the author calls the Mahdoubt gown ugly,,but Linden came to understand its not the gown per se,,but the Love that made it.
Please take a good slow read of Mahdoubts Chant that brings Linden back to her " Time"...The question has been asked; where is the Hope? Its in the small and almost easily brushed aside parable of the red flannel with Mahdoubts summation: The Surreal.
If she withdrew from exaltation, she would be forced to think- And every thought led to fear and contradictions; to dilemmas for which she was unprepared.
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Post by [Syl] »

Nobody took me up on my offer. What a shame. ;) Sorry for the delay. I'll pick up where I left off. Thank you for the kind words so far.

Linden should be very careful about making promises. They never worked very well for Covenant, and Troy... She realizes she's racking them up. She also realizes that she needs to get back to her own time to keep any of them.

Why the urgency, though? The Mahdoubt even tells her a bit later that "There is no need for haste." It's a bit cold in the Land, sure, but this would be a great time (a couple layers of meaning there) to sit back, figure out what's going on, make some plans, and perhaps actually learn something. She literally has thousands of years to figure it out. Considering time is a precious luxury in her proper timeline...

Of note, Linden feels an affinity toward Gallows Howe (though encountered before, a word worthy of the list. howe is synonymous with cairn or barrow), a place so soaked with blood that nothing can grow.

So Linden, desperate for company, and the Mahdoubt (desperate for... nothing? very few characters in the Land don't seem to have at least one thing driving them. I don't think we've seen one such so accepting but also serving a fundamental purpose since Amok) head back to the campfire which is magically still glowing cheerfully. Here the Mahdoubt confirms that she is indeed an Insequent. But she cannot answer any questions about them because:
...these questings demand solitude. They must be pursued privately or not at all. Each of the Insequent desires understanding and power which the others do not possess. For that reason, they become misers of knowledge. They move apart from each other, and their dealings are both infrequent and cryptic... The name of the Theomach is known to the Mahdoubt, as is that of the Vizard. Their separate paths are unlike hers, as hers is unlike theirs. But the Insequent have this loyalty to their own kind, that they neither oppose nor betray one another. Those who transgress... descend to a darkness of spirit from which they do not return. They are lost to name and knowledge and purpose, and until death claims them naught remains but madness. "
And when Linden says what many of us have thought, "it seems strange that I've never heardof your people before," the Mahdoubt answers "...the lady... even those will come to be named Lords - know naught of the Insequent because apt questions at the proper time have not been asked of those who might have given answer." Basically, 'we've been around but nobody thought to ask... not that we could really say anything about it if they did.'

Linden starts working on the Mahdoubt, figuring there has to be a way around these strictures, otherwise she wouldn't still be there. First, she tries asking about the Theomach. No luck there. Then the Mahdoubt asks her what she plans to do if she actually gets what she wants (like asking a dog what will happen if it actually ends up catching a car?).

Quick sidetrack. The Mahdoubt also refers to Foul as "He that is imprisoned, a-Jeroth of the Seven Hells" Considering the insequential nature of this name popping up (Kevin's time, forgotten for a couple of millenia, back during the time of the Clave), is it possible this was a name, or a meme, even, reintroduced by an Insequent? Could a-Jeroth be an Insequent name, ala Corruption, Fangthane, Satansheart Soulcrusher, or Gray Slayer? There has to be a story somewhere about Lord Foul and the Insequent, and I hope we get it.

Anyway, after the Mahdoubt also suggests that Jeremiah might not be an innocent victim, Linden answers that she will go to Andelain and get the Krill so she can use wild magic and the Staff of Law at the same time. Why she needs that much power... she knows, but she isn't saying. She's already made her decision, and she's going to stick with it, keep the course, until doomsday, even if "Every effort to envision some kind of hope brought her back to Covenant."

At first, the Mahdoubt doesn't like this answer, as any sane person wouldn't. "It is fearsome and terrible. The lady embraces devastation." A kinship to Gallows Howe, indeed. But if there were Insequent around Kevin at the time of the Desecration, they also probably said something like the Mahdoubt's "Upon occasion, ruin and redemption defy distinction. Assuredly they do. She will trust to that when every future has become cruel." Multiple futures?

So Linden goes off to think. Words are playing in her head, italicized for your convenience. Bits and pieces we hopefully have highlighted, because they're the key to unlocking the Mahdoubt. The key is 'gratitude,' and considering her role model is TC, perhaps that explains why I still don't feel it from her. Anyway, if the key is gratitude, then the lock is the Mahdoubt's dress. To show her gratitude, Linden must add to the Mahdoubt's dress. In return, the Mahdoubt will show her gratitude and get her back to her proper time.

Now here's a part I really take issue with. I feel like Linden's using the Mahdoubt. As I said, I don't feel like there's any genuine gratitude. Just because the dress is ugly, it doesn't mean you have to do an ugly job. In any other circumstance, Linden on her knees with her shirt off might be interesting, but here it was painful. She has the Staff of Law, not to mention at least some knowledge of 21st Century textile manufacturing. If she was going to use her shirt, which could undoubtedly use some Febreeze at this point, did she have to go caveman on it? If you look at the Mahdoubt herself, some people obviously put a lot of effort into it, perhaps investing more of themselves (literally?) than a scrap of flannel.

All I can hope is that this piece of flannel signifies more than the sum of its part. I truly hope something more personal of Linden's is invested in this, transferred by this.

Luckily, the Mahdoubt has faith, because I'm not sure I do:
The lady is resourceful... Must the Mahdoubt dismiss her fears? Assuredly she must. The lady has foiled her foes under great Melenkurion Skyweir. How then may it be contemplated that the Earth's doom will exceed her cunning?"
And perhaps Donaldson is addressing my fears with the explanation of "In her exhaustion, she believed that if she put her task down to rest or sleep, she might give her enemies the time they needed to achieve the Earth's end."

Note that "she located a place where her patch could be made to fit." Suggesting not that the gown was incomplete somehow, but that it did accommodate her purpose, even if it had to be done forcefully.

The Mahdoubt chants while Linden sews
A simple charm will master time,
-A cantrip clean and cold as snow.
It melts upon the brow of thought,
As plain as death, and so as fraught,
-Leaving its implications' rime,
for understanding makes it so.

The secret of its spell is trust.
-It does not change or undergo
The transformations which it wreaks -
the end in silence which it seeks -
-But stand forever as it must,
for cause and sequence make it so.

Such knowing is the sap of life
-And death, the rich, ripe joy and woe
Ascending in vitality
To feed the wealth of life's wide tree
-Regardless of its own long strife,
For plain acceptance makes it so.

This simple truth must order time:
-It simply is, and all minds know
The way of it, the how, the why:
They must forever live and die
-In rhythm, for the metered rhyme
Of growth and pasing makes it so.

The silent mind does not protest
-The ending of its days, or go
To loss in grief and futile pain,
But rather knows the healing gain
-Of time's eternity at rest.
The cause of sequence makes it so
This seems to be talking about the nature of the Insequent and perhaps the source of their power. Are they people who just refuse to accept Time? Or have the found the Law of Time and its loopholes, saying 'I won't mess with stuff (perhaps explaining why they have to go off in solitude - less connections and complications), but I will jump around and learn a few things.' Basically, the only things they're allowed to do must still result in a balanced equation - same result at the end of Time.

I'd also like to say that the apostrophe in "implications'" is out of place. Spoken, as the chant is, I would never think, and wonder if anyone could, that implication is meant to be plural.

Song and sewing done, Linden is back in her current time.
"It is not the literal past that rules us, save, possibly, in a biological sense. It is images of the past. Each new historical era mirrors itself in the picture and active mythology of its past or of a past borrowed from other cultures. It tests its sense of identity, of regress or new achievement against that past.”
-George Steiner
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Post by hue of fuzzpaws »

What struck me about this chapter was the Mahdoubt talking about a-Jeroth and his mark(?) on Jeremiah;
Spoiler
" But do you grasp that your son has known the power of a-Jeroth? He that is imprisoned, a-Jeroth of the seven Hells?"
Although Linden seems to think that the Mahdoubt is referring to Lord Foul, I get the feeling that the Mahdoubt is either referring about the croyel or perhaps even to Kastenessen ( the image of a fiery hell etc)

It is almost as if SRD is having a subtext throughout the last chronicles , challenging the reader about what we know about the Land etc
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Post by dlbpharmd »

hue of bone wrote:What struck me about this chapter was the Mahdoubt talking about a-Jeroth and his mark(?) on Jeremiah;
Spoiler
" But do you grasp that your son has known the power of a-Jeroth? He that is imprisoned, a-Jeroth of the seven Hells?"
Although Linden seems to think that the Mahdoubt is referring to Lord Foul, I get the feeling that the Mahdoubt is either referring about the croyel or perhaps even to Kastenessen ( the image of a fiery hell etc)

It is almost as if SRD is having a subtext throughout the last chronicles , challenging the reader about what we know about the Land etc
If so, why use the clave name a-Jeroth? Remember, even Roger referred to Foul with this name.
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Post by SoulBiter »

I need to look it up but i believe that the name A-Jeroth is mentioned in the First Chronicles.
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Post by dlbpharmd »

SoulBiter wrote:I need to look it up but i believe that the name A-Jeroth is mentioned in the First Chronicles.
IIRC the first mention of the name was in TWL.
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Post by lurch »

Well Syl, theres one place I couldn't agree with you more on..Linden is using Mahdoubt. Yea! I mean,, Heck Yea!!..Mahdoubt is there,,back in time,,to Be Used. But to be used, Linden has to figure the Mystery out. Mahdoubt gives her clues,, all that you need, you have..the answer lays within Linden. Yea, this is the " quid pro quo" that the Insequent deal in. Theomach sets the example. Mahdoubt continues the Insequent formula. I've suggested earlier that the Insequent are like Muses. ..in that they bestow their blessings only upon being "recognized" for what they are. Strikes me that Mahdoubt is a Muse of Love. Afterall, she warned about the glamor on Love, and as you have pointed out,, has seen the smallest inkling of Linden's ability to still connect to LOVE in Linden's action with the Red Flannel, despite her obsidian mindset. Future chapters bring this to clear focus.

And thats the Deal. The issue from the start of Runes, Lindens one way relationships with Dead Tom and Autistic Jerry ,have conditioned her. Mahdoubt has " allowed" Linden to experience the UnTruth of that conditioning and now has made herself available to guide Linden to finding Truth. Upon being recognized, "shown gratitude", by Linden, Mahdoubt judges Linden can now move forward in Her Time. The gratitude is in that Linden found the answer to the Mystery inside herself ...figured it out on her own,, without Logic..That she executed the the whole sewing by her own devices is the point,, not that she was caveman about it. Thru her own devices,,Linden intuitively figures out the mystery of the Mahdoubt and thru her own devices,,Creates a show of gratitude .This makes the Mahdoubt glad because as a Muse, she has been successful. She WAS used. She has led Linden to a bit of Linden's Truth.

This brings me to a question for the author and I think I'll go to the GI and ask it.
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Post by Relayer »

I love this chapter too. The scenes with Wildwood are elegant, and the Mahdoubt is always enjoyable. The pacing, after the past couple of chapters, is such a breath of fresh air (literally... even though it's still winter, there are actual living trees around her). And it's nothing like the "slow" chapters before the Skyweir. Those were filled with manipulation and lies, abuse, despair and confusion. This one actually provides some answers (or confirmation). And more importantly, provides Linden with assistance and shows her she still has friends even in this faraway time, when she really is ready to just die. As much despair as she felt earlier, she hadn't given up, but now she's truly hit bottom and let go. It makes me think of the Genesis song "Afterglow"

But now, now I've lost everything,
I give to you my soul.
The meaning of all that I believed before
Escapes me in this world of none, no thing, no one.


And Linden does give her soul, to Wildwood and to the Land. Just not in the way that Troy had to. At that point I was thinking, "no!! don't agree to anything!!" but he imposes nothing on her. Yet, she does promise to find an answer. And she will do everything she can to keep it.

But I would search everywhere, just to hear your call...

---

Another thing that struck me was how much detail SRD put into the telling of Linden's act of gratitude. I really noticed when listening to it how drawn out this section is. The tearing of the cloth... the needle... the thread... the sewing... all the things Linden is thinking while this happens... It's as if he's trying to tell us something about the care and involvement in an act of gratitude.

Does the Mahdoubt actually 'need' for this act of gratitude to happen? I mean, is she just testing Linden to see if she's worthy of the help, or does the Mahdoubt's lore truly require the energy of the gratitude and love to enable the translation through time?

---

And, a strange thought... apparently the Mahdoubt has performed numerous acts of service, each of which was 'enabled' by someone creating part of her gown in gratitude and love. No number is given for the amount of pieces, but if they're the size of one or two hands (makes me think of a very patchwork quilt), it would take a lot to form a gown. But how did this get started in the first place? The 3rd or 4th person to be helped wouldn't have had much to work with. (was the Mahdoubt's gown once more like a bikini? :) ) ... And what did the first person do? "Here, have some cloth. Now save me."

Inquiring minds want to know.
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Post by SoulBiter »

dlbpharmd wrote:
SoulBiter wrote:I need to look it up but i believe that the name A-Jeroth is mentioned in the First Chronicles.
IIRC the first mention of the name was in TWL.
No.. I think its in one of the song/poems... Hmmm now I gotta go look and see if I can find it again.
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Post by lurch »

Relayer,,yea,, the struggle of Linden dealing with the flannel. Interestingly,, not everything she tried worked. Neat little process she went thru. It is like the creative process in action. Not everything one creates sticks. But she kept at it,,her heart pounding to the very completion.

To me,, what the Mahdoubt required..the quo of the quid pro (?) was the whole gestalt..solving the mystery while Mahdoubt wrapped herself in her cloak and left Linden to figure it out,,and then the creation,, the actual execution of the created idea..Lindens not giving up,, finding and giving..by her own devices , fulfilled Mahdoubts requirements of being recognized, acknowledged, a respect so to speak, and a gratitude so to speak. Again.. it isn't about a gawd awful tacky gown,,but it is about the Love , the acknowledgment of Mahdoubts Blessings. Mahdoubts Orange Eye seemed to be the eye that was looking for that. Perhaps a tattered and shot blanket, scrap of cloth, given to her by a finally victorious Berek,,started it all. Its a thought anyway.
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Post by dlbpharmd »

SoulBiter wrote:
dlbpharmd wrote:
SoulBiter wrote:I need to look it up but i believe that the name A-Jeroth is mentioned in the First Chronicles.
IIRC the first mention of the name was in TWL.
No.. I think its in one of the song/poems... Hmmm now I gotta go look and see if I can find it again.
I believe that we're thinking of the same instance but that was in TWL, and it was Sunder's song about Diassomer Mininderain.
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Post by SoulBiter »

Could be... I know that Lena in one of the songs talks of the seven hells. Im gonna look and see if I can find it. I seem to recall seeing that in my re-read of the first chrons a few months ago...but maybe my memory is playing tricks on me.
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Post by Relayer »

Lurch, well put. The "whole gestalt" describes it quite aptly. Interesting thought about Berek and the Mahdoubt...

I don't have LFB with me but there's this from the Lords at Vespers (found in Songs of the Land page on SRD.com). This song doesn't mention a-Jeroth though.

...Seven hells for failed faith,
For Land's betrayers, man and wraith: ...
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Post by matrixman »

Lurch's view of Linden and the Mahdoubt makes sense to me. Not that I totally disagree with Syl's view. But Linden's humility before the old woman seemed sincere, the way I read it.
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Post by danlo »

I'm slowly starting to read this chapter in perpetration for my dissection and I've got to this part: well, for Linden not being a complete sucker, I guess. I'm still laughing at that! Something still has to be given willingly-so Roger and Jer/croy were allowed to try to blast her to the depths of her core existence, but they couldn't kill her.

I still think Foul's name on the council was Lord Jeroth.
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Post by wayfriend »

Syl --- awesome dissection!

:!!!:
Syl wrote:First, I'd like to briefly talk about the title of the section - "Victims and Enactors of Despite."
A very important thing to do!

This title reminds me that self-despite makes one both a victim of despite as well as an enactor of despite. But the question is, where does self-despite fit into this section?

Also of note, this section title is (as they usually are) a quote from Donaldson's earlier works.

For Kevin said to Linden,
In [u]White Gold Weilder[/u] was wrote:"We are kindred in our way — the victims and enactors of Despite. You must heed me. Do not credit that you may exercise choice here. The Land's need admits no choice. You must heed me. Must!"
So, this is also a reference to Kevin, his kinship with Linden - and his Ritual of Desecration, wherein he enacted despite because he fell victim to despite. Foul's victims are led to destroy that which they love -- victims and enactors. But the question is, where does destroying that which one loves fit into this section?
Spoiler
Linden rousing the worm? Possibly. But Kevin specifically wanted Linden to destroy Covenant. "If no other means suffice, you must slay im." Uh oh.
One last point. At one point in this chapter, Linden thinks: Ever since they had forbidden her to touch them - ever since they had turned her love and woe against her - she had foundered in confusion; and so she had been made to serve Despite.
So Linden admits that her confusion has served the Despisor, making her both a victim and an enactor of despite. But this is the beginning of the section. One can only conclude that more confusion and more serving is coming our way.

:!!!:
Syl wrote:"From the Depths" Ok, so now I'll monotonously go over the meaning of this title.
Also important, so true. I agree with you that the title reflects Linden's physical emergence from the mountain as well as her emotional emergence from trauma and dire straits.

And also, perhaps one more thing. If Linden could be said to be "deep in the past" when this chapter begins, she has emerged from it by the time it ends.

:!!!:
So, she continues to stumble her way along. But we're also supposed to know that she has been transformed (which I believe was the name of a chapter here recently), having gone through her own kind of caamora. "...some essential part of her had been extinguished, burned away by battles which surpassed her strength. She was no longer the woman who had endured Roger's cruelties for Jeremiah's sake." Throughout the rest of the chapter Donaldson compares her to granite, which is hard and formed deep beneath the earth by magma, possibly under great pressure.
Yes. Donaldson's repitition here cannot be discounted. Linden has been transformed. Hardened. The connotations here are that she's tougher - - but less sensitive. It's unclear if she is the better for this, or for the worse. Another thing that Donaldson repeats in this same vein is -- She won't be fooled again..

I think that this is of vital importance. An importance which can be overlooked or discounted in subsequent chapters.
Spoiler
My gut tells me that this is going to come to fruition when Covenant and Linden finally meet and interact.
I also feel that both Linden and the Staff have been changed in a sympathetic manner. The Staff is blacked; so is Linden, in a way. Perhaps this means that the Staff, like Linden, bears the marks of battle and ill use. It, too, has been made tougher, harder, and at some cost to its better qualities.

:!!!: "She had become a stillatory of pain, and her heart was stone."

stillatory: a vessel of distillation, a place where distillation is performed.

distillation: the purification or concentration of a substance.

So: Linden is in a lot of pain.

:!!!:
Syl wrote:Then she stumbles on the Mahdoubt who has a fire going. In Garroting Deep. After Linden's questions about why Roger and the croyel didn't kill her are twice ignored (priorities?)
Ah, but even Linden senses that this is a time and a place for answers and for revelations.

:!!!: "As she ladled stew from the pot, she spoke to the cookfire and the louring night as though she had forgotten Linden's presence."

louring: A dark and ominous look.

Crepuscular!

:?: The Mahdoubt says,
"Assuredly the lady's treachers required her absence from her condign time, lest she be succored by such powers as they could not lightly oppose - by ur-viles and Waynhim, and perchance by others as well. Also they feared - and rightly - that which lies hidden within the old man whom the lady has befriended."
So Roger and the croyel fear Anele - specifically, something within Anele. And the Mahdoubt knows what this is.

What lies hidden within the old man? His true, un-insane self? His power? His possessors? Does she obliquely refer perhaps to Covenant?

Plausible. It'd be rather awkward if Covenant started speaking through Anele while Roger, disguised, was right there. In fact, it almost happened. Fortunately for Roger, Anele was in the upland plateau at the time.

:!!!:
Syl wrote:Finally Wildwood shows up ... He doesn't appear to be as angry this time.
As if to put lie to the idea that he's an out-and-out butcher, eh?

:?:
Syl wrote:all he asks is that Linden try to find an answer for his question - "How may life endure in the Land, if the Forestals fail and perish, as the must, and naught remains to ward its most vulnerable treasures. We were formed to stand as guardians in the Creator's stead. Must it transpire that beauty and truth shall pass utterly when we are gone?"
Instead of thinking "the answer's probably 'yes'", I've been wondering, ... wouldn't the answer be 'no' if evil - destruction, despite, call it what you will - is first eradicated? Can it be eradicated? Donaldson has told us, consistently, no. Life must contain the seeds of its own destruction, as it were. But now I wonder ... what if this is what Donaldson means to explore? Maybe, in fact, it's not 100% true.

Otherwise ... the answer's probably 'yes'.

:!!!: "When she closed her fingers around it, the shapes flared briefly once more, and she saw that they were indeed runes: inexplicable to her, but sequacious and acute."

sequacious: following with smooth or logical regularity

So: she couldn't understand the runes, but they were smooth and regular, and sharply delineated.

:?: Again, we have a hint that Jeremiah may have thrown in his lot with Foul.
"He's Lord Foul's prisoner," she replied through her teeth. Tell her that I have her son. "I've known that since I first arrived. One of the croyel has him now, but that doesn't change anything."

The older woman sighed. "The Mandoubt does not speak of this. Rather she observes that a-Jeroth's mark was placed upon the boy when he was yet a small child, as the lady recalls."

Her statement stuck Linden's heart like iron on stone; struck and shed sparks.

The bonfire, she thought in sudden anguish. Jeremiah's hand. He had been in Lord Foul's power then, hypnotized by eyes like fangs in the savage flames; betrayed by his natural mother. He had borne the cost ever since. And when his raceway construct freed him to visit the Land, he may have felt the Despiser's influence, directly or indirectly.

The Mandoubt seemed to suggest that Jeremiah had formed a willing partnership with the croyel. That his sufferings had distorted and corrupted him within the secrecy of his dissociation.

If Linden's heart had not been fused -
Can we doubt the Mahdoubt? (heh)

:!!!: "If her questions and assertions were kindly meant, their benignance had become obscure."

benignance: kindness

:!!!:
Syl wrote:To show her gratitude, Linden must add to the Mahdoubt's dress. In return, the Mahdoubt will show her gratitude and get her back to her proper time.

I said this when I first read this, and I am saying this now.

This scene is one of the weirdest things I have ever read by Donaldson.

It's like a bizarre sewing fetish.

:?:
"A simple charm will master time,
A cantrip clean and cold as snow.
It melts upon the brow of thought,
As plain as death, and so as fraught,
Leaving its implications' rime,
For understanding makes it so.

"The secret of its spell is trust.
It does not change or undergo
The transformations which it wreaks
The end in silence which it seeks
But stands forever as it must,
For cause and sequence make it so.

"Such knowing is the sap of life
And death, the rich, ripe joy and woe
Ascending in vitality
To feed the wealth of life's wide tree
Regardless of its own long strife,
For plain acceptance makes it so.

"This simple truth must order time:
It simply is, and all minds know
The way of it, the how, the why:
They must forever live and die
In rhythm, for the metered rhyme
Of growth and passing makes it so.

"The silent mind does not protest
The ending of its days, or go
To loss in grief and futile pain,
But rather knows the healing gain
Of time's eternity at rest.
The cause of sequence makes it so."
I'm glad we're talking about the song. The first time I read this passage, I glossed over the song. (Partly, I was weirded out by the sewing fetish.) This time, for the sake of dissection, I looked into it.

A simple charm will master time. Right there, we know that this song is the Mahdoubt's spell, the spell that takes Linden back through time.

This song has numerous appeals to Law. Live and die in rhythm. Growth and passing. Cause and sequence. Cause of sequence. It speaks more, it seems, of the Forestal himself, and his hold. Sap of life. Feeding the wealth of time's ripe tree. I think, if anything, the Mahdoubt and the Forestal have each others sympathies. Which, perhaps, explains why Wildwood shows such forebearance towards the Mahdoubt.

The song also speaks of trust, and acceptance. Which hints at the very sewing ritual being undertaken. The root of the patching is acceptance of the Mahdoubts needs, and trusting her to do what is needed.

Finally, the song speaks of Time itself, and what Time really is. It simply is ... a metered rhyme of growth and passing ... living and dying in rhythm. Time as harmony. Is it any wonder, then, why Caerroil Wildwood sings?
Syl wrote:This seems to be talking about the nature of the Insequent and perhaps the source of their power.
I wonder if that's true. We know that the Mahdoubt is a master of Time. I think this song is more about what she has known, what she has learned, what is her lore.

And, perhaps, it thereby explains the patching/gratitude ritual. But I cannot figure out that part.

:!!!:
matrixman wrote:So, while the Melenkurion Skyweir chapters rocked me, I treasure this one for the compassion of the Mahdoubt and the wisdom of Wildwood.
On that I certainly agree.

Which brings me nicely to my closing mini-discussion.

What have we learned about the Mahdoubt in this chapter?

First, that she was young once, but as an adult she became a loner, seeking and hoarding knowledge, as all Insequent do. But then she became older, "living beyond her time", and she "finds gladness only in service". This makes her rather un-Insequentish.

What is she up to?

And what have we learned about Caerroil Wildwood in this chapter?

Well, Linden pretty much admits straight out to the Forestal that she is from the future. Could it be that the seed of the Forestal's mechanizations - Troy, Caer-Caveral, the map of to the One Tree, the breaking the Law of Life - all begin here?

And how does Wildwood immediately recognize that the Staff is unfinished? He sees that it was "completed in ignorance" -- not stupidity, but a lack of deep lore. So he adds runes, which we know implies lore, finishing the staff. And "the commandments of Law have been fortified".

What is he up to?

P.S. "a-Jeroth" is not mentioned until TWL. And, yes, danlo, according to Roger, he was known as a-Jeroth in the Council of Lords. This was revealed in FR, chapter two.
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