Fatal Revenant: Part 2, Ch 4--Old Conflicts

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Fatal Revenant: Part 2, Ch 4--Old Conflicts

Post by Zarathustra »

Section 1.

This chapter is a straight-up Insequent showcase. The Harrow. The Mahdoubt. The Vizard. The Theomach. We get one of the coolest battles between “wizards” I’ve ever read in any fantasy series, as well as one of the most important “revisionist” stories we’ve seen thus far in the Last Chronicles, reaching back before the 1st Chronicles, and completely reinterpreting some of the most important events of the 2nd.

I hope I can do it justice. I haven’t been keeping up in the discussions. But I’m going to pop open a homebrew, and enjoy this gem of a chapter.

We start with the revelation of just how powerful these beings can be. —devoured them. A single man capable of devouring a horde of Demondim! Not only do the Insequent possess knowledge, as has been stressed thus far, but they can put that knowledge to use in ways that are shockingly deadly. We are starting to get a sense that they might actually be equal to the Elohim, as they like to think of themselves.
“Hardly aware of what she did, she drew a subtle current of Earthpower from among the runes to counteract the cold touch of dread and desire. A man who could do that—”
Dread and desire? I missed that “desire” part the first time around. This is a woman who craves power, certainly.

Does the Harrow’s fire “which he does not replenish” remind anyone of the fire started by a Raver-possessed Triock in PTP? I’m not suggesting a connection to that fire. In fact, Donaldson implies a different comparison: Mahdoubt’s fire in “From the Depths.” It reminds Linden of her fire. But this description in the text had a similar effect on me, resonating all the way back to the 1st Chronicles. This entropy-defying detail bespeaks of an ominous violation of the limits of mortality, whether it comes from the Insequent or a Raver.

Contemplating the dangers facing her, Linden thinks:
“Surely her foes had already formed new plans and started to carry them out? Roger and the croyel had escaped the convulsions under Melenkurion Skyweir. Moksha Jehanum’s role remained hidden. If they and the skurj and Kastenessen and Esmer and Kevin’s Dirt and Joan’s caesures did not suffice to achieve Lord Foul’s desires, he would devise new threats.”
Wow! That’s a lot of threats! And we are nowhere close to resolving any of them. Donaldson has used a “kitchen sink” approach to creating tension in this series. My only complaint is that these threats seem remote and ambiguous, and almost too numerous. And he even leaves room for the possibility that if these aren’t enough (!) Foul could throw even more at her. Again: wow!

We end the first section with this: “While she paced, she tried to imagine what she would have done if she had been free to exact answers from the Theomach.”

That’s a cryptic bookend to this section. Any guesses? She isn’t imagining answers—she is imagining what how far she would have gone to extract them. Perhaps she is merely expressing regret that she didn’t do more? Or is she imagining how extreme her desire for answers might have been?

Section 2.

Stave returns with the Humbled, after conveying to the Haruchai the details of Linden’s adventures in the Past.
Linden asks, “How did they react?”
Stave, “They are the Masters of the Land.”
Linden, “In other words, they didn’t react at all.”

It’s ironic how “mastery” is interpreted by Donaldson to mean “indecision, inaction, paralysis.” The Masters have made everyone helpless, and now they themselves freeze when faced with a danger larger than themselves. They are self-doubt and arrogant authority all rolled up into one package. Stave explains it succinctly: “Like the Masters, I am uncertain. Therefore I prefer to await the resolution of my doubts.”

It all depends on Linden, the woman who used to be paralyzed by her own capacity for evil. They, and the Harrow, are waiting on her.

For purely meta-narrative reasons, one of my “favorite” quotes of the book is: “He’s a bit too fortuitous for my taste.” (In reference to the Harrow.) No doubt! After all the build-up of the Demondim through two books, several centuries, and frustratingly vague encounters, they are simply gone. That’s the literary equivalent of blue balls. (Ah, I can’t believe I just said that. Forgive me Donaldson!) This quote is second only to Roger’s, “It’s so damn gratuitous” in Part 1. I get the impression that Donaldson is aware of potential narrative problems created by such shortcuts, and he handles it like a pro: letting the characters acknowledge it and feel the same frustration that we ourselves might be feeling at such moments. This way, he takes meta-narrative problems (i.e. problems in terms of the craft of writing) and turns them into literal narrative problems (problems facing or involving the characters themselves). I love this technique. It’s genius. It’s a pro in action, confidently shooting down potential reader objections by turning them into objections the characters have, too. And this opens up the possibility of dealing with potentially problematic plot twists in terms of character reactions—which nullifies the objection before it can be uttered. Instead of an external contrivance by the author, it turns into an integral part of the plot. Brilliant.
Apparently she was doomed to pursue her fate in the company of halfhands.


A nice touch.

Another nice touch:
“But overhead a profusion of stars filled the heavens, glittering gems in swaths and multitudes untouched by the small concerns of suffering and death. They formed no constellations that she knew, but she found solace in them nonetheless.

Following Stave through the darkness, she was glad to be reminded that her fears and powers were little things, too evanescent and human to impinge upon the immeasurable cycles of the stars. Her life depended upon what she did. It was possible that Stave and the Humbled and all of Revelstone’s people were at risk. In ways which she could not yet imagine, Jeremiah’s survival—and perhaps that of the Land as well—might hang in the balance. Yet the stars took no notice: they would not. She was too small to determine their doom.
This helps her cope with not only the kitchen sink of dangers mentioned above, but specifically the potential danger of the Harrow facing her now. “[W]hile the heavens endured, she could afford to push her limits until they broke—or she did.”

It’s a beautiful sentiment, but it seems to come out of nowhere. I’ve never heard her place such transcendental value in the heavens, before. The very thing that bothers her—her own limitations and lack of power—strangely give her comfort?? Wildwood charged her with finding an answer to entropy (basically) and now she is comforted by the finitude of herself and her problems? Strange.

Now we come to the Harrow. His voice is loamy, his clothes are brown, and his chlamys is secured by a bronze clasp in the shape of a plowshare. Why the dirt/ground/earth imagery? Donaldson says his clothing are an expression of his identity. Answers.com defines “harrow” as:

A farm implement consisting of a heavy frame with sharp teeth or upright disks, used to break up and even off plowed ground.
1. To break up and level (soil or land) with a harrow.
2. To inflict great distress or torment on.

To plunder; sack. To rob of goods by force, especially in time of war.



Those who have read this book know by now that some of those definitions are apt (plundering, inflicting distress), but what of the “evening or leveling of earth?” Will he perform a balance of some sorts? Breaking up or tearing down to level out some feature of the earth?

Continuing on this theme, SRD says his eyes are like holes or caves leading to subterranean depths . . . depths that Healthsense can’t plumb.

Linden discovers that the Harrow didn’t consume the Demondim, but instead learned the trick of unbinding them. And this trick depends on their nature: they have no tangible forms (bodies), and would dissolve if not for a “containing ensorcellment.” Lore and purpose bind them, and unraveling a single thread unbinds them. He disposed of them because their presence in this time threatened his own purpose (though I don’t really see how).

Now she remembers when/how she had heard his voice: through Anele. He’d said, “Such power becomes you. But it will not suffice. In the end, you must succumb. If you do not, you will nonetheless be compelled to accept my aid, for which I will demand recompense”

Why do the Humbled attack as soon as he introduces himself? If they recognize danger in his name, why did they not recognize danger in his appearance? What exactly settles their doubt regarding him? Did they look up “harrow” on Answers.com too? :) But their attack proves effectless.

The Harrow observes, “Lady, you have not inquired into the nature of my desires.” And with that statement, he sucks away her will in the black caves of his eyes. External reality “slips sideways” into a different dimension (sounds similar to Theomach effects). She can’t summon power from her Staff; volition is gone.

And now we get an explicit statement of his desires: her Staff, her ring, and the “unfettered wrath at the center of [her] heart.” (That last bit is another piece I missed during my first read.) Why does he need her wrath? Apparently, it will “nourish” him.

Oh, and he thinks Linden is hot. :)

Well, as I feared, I’m unable to do this chapter justice . . . at least not tonight. I’m getting sleepy. I promise to finish up the rest tomorrow—the best is definitely to come. I’m unable to just skim over it; I have to take it sentence by sentence. So I’ll stop here and give others a chance to add as they wish.
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Post by danlo »

Thanks Malik!!!! I've been dying for this dissection to be posted! The odd similarities to Elemesnedene and The One Tree are fantastic! The Harrow is one cool and nasty character!
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Post by Zarathustra »

Have at it, Danlo! Like I've said, I haven't even touched on the best stuff. If I had, I'd be up another 4 hours and posted another 10,000 words. :)

Ah, procrastination. Nothing like the holidays to enable laziness.
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Post by Mortice Root »

Very nicely done, Malik! I'm not going to jump ahead of where you left off your dissection, but I agree with danlo - the Harrow is one of the most intruiging characters we've come across in the Last Chrons.

I love the fact the he doesn't deign to notice the attack of the Humbled, but keeps smiling at Linden and talking as though nothing happened. Again - a very powerful being.

I also blew past the third of the Harrow's wants in my inital read - he wants the staff, the ring and Linden's wrath. This time around, I wondered how he would actually get Linden's "wrath" and then, what would he do with it? The Harrow seems to have spent his time studying the material or physical knoweldge beyond objects or beings of power - that's why he could "unbind" the Demondim. It also makes sense that he wants the staff and the ring - they're physical objects. But Linden's "wrath" ? Did he spend time studying anger in general - probably not, because then anyone's wrath would do. So it's specifically Linden's. What does this say about the Harrow that he feels he needs her wrath? And probably more importantly, what does it say about her? Is she herself a being of power, like the Demondim - does she have her own intrinsic power outside of that given by the ring and the staff? Her healthsense, maybe?
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Post by danlo »

Very interesting observation about Linden's wrath and a great question about her health sense. Also interesting to think of an out worldly connection to said wrath. Sorry to bring it up once more, but her dealings with her Mother and Father, and Gibbon's hammering of those emotions, etc...are part of the foundation of her wrath, not to mention how pissed she was at Roger for kidnapping Jer. Perhaps he senses that part of her wrath is not of the Land's world and that that part of it absolutely intrigues him. It was speculation about the Vizard that led me to that line of thinking-When he talked to Jer in the 'ether' or in between states of the Land and our world (or at least when Jer says he was floating around the Land but was not, yet, incorporated), he learned of and coveted his construct "powers". These are special types of power (of course like Covenant) that originate from our world alone.

Anyway I thought that was a cool thought...but I'm rambling-back to the Harrow-am I wrong in thinking that he has now, essentially, wiped out two members of his own race? First the Vizard, then the Mahdoubt? The Mahdoubt seemed to indicate that such actions aren't acceptable by individual Insequents (though they might be necessary by the collective). Yes the Mahdoubt accepted her end but doesn't this seem to make the Harrow even more dangerous than he appears? Seems like even the Elohim have to give pause with the Harrow. I'm not saying he's the "dark place in their hearts"-but he may be connected to it...somehow...

What I meant about the similarities with The One Tree should be fairly obvious: as a geography nut I absolutely love it when a new section of the Land's world opens up-sure the Land of the Insequent isn't all that detailed, but it is lush...where's everyone else? Invisible or traipsing around the world? Earthpower, apparently, doesn't travel that far...the Vizard's hut and environs seems sort of like the maidan and an opening to a Insequent Elemesnedene (that is if you could kick his ass to enter) in an odd way...The Elohim are pretty powerful, but the Insequent are downright badass.

I want to see more of that land and what's to the west of it? Sandgorgons? Nah... 8)
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Post by lurch »

Allow me to suggest ...not to dissect this chapter,but rather to peel it like an onion or any slower, one layer at time immersing, rather than a cut to the inner heart of it.

i began with, this chapter is in the 2nd section of this book; the section titled, " victims and enactors of despite"

Then , the title of this chapter is " Old Conflicts"
With that observation, it comes to mind,,what are the conflicts in this chapter. Gee wizz..Right on the surface , the conflicting opposites are almost endless,,olde indeed! Arrogance vs humility...humiliation vs hubris,,,greed vs sacrifice, distant feckless, uncaring , unmoved stars and immediate vacillating fire and emotions etc etc etc ,each conflicting spawning another! Time and place even, are brought to lagerheads..The magic in this chapter is like Disney's Sorcerer's Apprentice,Mickey M, commanding the animated objects swirling all about him; the "conflicting " dances thru the Time of the Land at Donaldson's command of the baton. Cause and effect become blurred realities creating and shaping new and different realities. Try this one: Esmer is Theomach's pay back to Linden in the quid pro quo arrangement Theo and Linden agreed on. Yea,,Mickey had elephants and hippos dancing so there.. is an elephant in the room wanting to do the tango and looking for a partner....

Danlo,, you brushed up against it,,Theo and Mahdoubt,, the ideal parents that Linden never had? Consider how these two Time Travelers have fostered a possible future involving Esmer and Linden..The Harrow, ha! previously I suggest he was like the Ego. Possessive, arrogant, over powering, and that as may be, but there is another subtlety i find interesting..This Time and Place conflict: When Place is changed,,there is loss. The haruch..changed places they lose. Mahdoubts Time manipulation beats Harrows changing Places ability. There is an olde saying about dealing with conflict...You can change places and you can place the changes,,which will it be? A Long Term perspective on how it is that Esmer came to be..again ,,indicates Time as a victor. Linden must stay true to the changes she has placed,,benefit from what she has transcended in Time

Some other conclusions brought by this chapter; despite all this Time,,the Haruch still don't seem to have figured it out..They , join Linden in the Knives in need of sharpening category. Their growing doubt enables them to sharpen up a bit tho..Freekin Donadlson is genius here.
There appears a possibility of a conflicted encounter to come between the Harrow and Esmer. Time and Place..gak..this is rite out of the TV show LOST,," Only Fools are enslaved by Time and Place"..Harrow better lose, here that Donaldson!!?
Malik brought up the slick transitioning of.." the readers problem" becoming the characters problem..I see that " bridge" since the beginning of FR if not sooner. I mean, the Mystery of TC and Jerry was Linden's as well as ours, the readers..so...Liand's and Mahtiir's unknowing is ours as well. And the author does little to camouflage the answer here.. He is called arrogant, greedy, etc etc straight out...and strange as it may be..Linden gives him a bit of the wrath he desires,,and he flinches. He cowers from it. There is an answer of sorts. Please don't cower from the parable of this chapter.
If she withdrew from exaltation, she would be forced to think- And every thought led to fear and contradictions; to dilemmas for which she was unprepared.
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Post by wayfriend »

I'm late again, but I see were are only halfway through, so that's not so bad.

Malik, you started off really well, peeling this one open. I hope you finish it. I found quite a lot in this chapter to discuss, my list of notes is very long. I shall have to limit myself to where we have broke.

:?:
Malik23 wrote:We start with the revelation of just how powerful these beings can be. —devoured them.
My mind went a different way on that word "devour". I see this idea of beings devouring beings emerging as an important thematic element in the story.

Of course, we're not speaking of mere literal eating. The Harrow speaks of devouring Linden. It will "nourish" him.

Were I able to consume them, I would have taken their power into myself and become stronger. What we seem to be talking about here is beings of power who "devour" other beings of power, and thereby become more powerful. When I think about this, I think about Nom, who "consumed" a Raver after it was rent. I think about the Worm devouring the stars. Ur-viles devouring wraiths. (And I think about Covenant absorbing the blasts that Foul poured his essence into.)
Spoiler
And Infelice crying, "Because of her madness and folly, every Elohim will be devoured."
If I am right, then this is a new mechanic that will somehow play into the resolution of the Chronicles.

:?:
Malik23 wrote:Does the Harrow’s fire “which he does not replenish” remind anyone of the fire started by a Raver-possessed Triock in PTP?
I didn't think of it.

But I was surprised that with one such very subtle clue Linden could peg this stranger as a possible Insequent. It seemed a stretch. And Stave also seemed to guess that he was Insequent as well. Perhaps he has seen some "devouring" before?

:!!!: "From his shoulders hung a short dun chlamys secured by a bronze clasp"

chlamys: A short mantle fastened at the shoulder, worn by men in ancient Greece.

:?:
Malik23 wrote:He disposed of them because their presence in this time threatened his own purpose (though I don’t really see how).
As to the threat to his purpose, I am sure the Demondim would somehow prevent his aquisition of staff, ring, and wrath (see below). But I'm not sure how.

The Demondim were trapping Linden in Revelstone. (Occassional trip through time aside.) If the Harrow could not enter Revelstone (which it appears he would not or could not) then this would interfere. Not very solid evidence, I admit ...

:!!!:
Malik23 wrote:Why do the Humbled attack as soon as he introduces himself?
They attacked immediately upon the Harrow saying, "Lady, you have not inquired into the nature of my desires" and putting Linden into a paralysis/trance. If it was obvious that Linden was ensorcelled, then the Haruchai's response is explained.

What I don't understand is why the Harrow did not slay or stun or even harm the Haruchai, who were left to try and try again until they succeeded.

:!!!: It seems that all of the Insequent we've met refer to Linden as "Lady".

:!!!:
Malik23 wrote:She can’t summon power from her Staff; volition is gone.

And that trick reminds me of Kasreyn.

It seems that certain powers are very similar among the pantheon of inscrutable, omnipotent beings encountered in the Chronicles. It probably speaks more to the fact that similar things are done similar ways, than that there's a relationship between the beings.

:!!!: "She could do nothing except observe her ruin until every particle of her being was devoured."

devour!!!

:?: Regarding the Harrow's desire for the ring and the Staff. I am really curious as to why that is.

As an Insequent, he cannot be blind to Linden's archetypal role in the history of the Earth. The Theomach and the Mahdoubt certainly were. For what reason would he choose to mess with that stuff? Does he want the Earth destroyed and Foul loosed on the cosmos?

... or ... even the Mahdoubt sees Linden's path as being dangerous and risky. Yet she chooses to trust Linden. Perhaps the Harrow, knowing the same about Linden, does not?

Does the Harrow, perhaps, think he is saving the world?

The Theomach says that Insequent are "seldom petty" where the Elohim are concerned. Surely the ring and the Staff fall into the category? And, from other anecdotes, we see that the Elohim seem to trust the Insequent to keep the world safe, allowing them to not bother.
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Post by Aleksandr »

What I don't understand is why the Harrow did not slay or stun or even harm the Haruchai, who were left to try and try again until they succeeded.
His power was so much greater than any threat they could offer that he just waved them aside, much as we might wave away a cloud of gnats rather than bothering to crush them.

Now here's a question. The Harrow has power over the bindings that hold the Demondim together
Spoiler
And their spawn as we later see.
Could he unbind the Staff of Law, or alter its purpose, because it was
created from Vain?
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Post by danlo »

Vain is prefect and a construct--seems like only Jeremiah may have the power to unbind a construct.
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Post by lurch »

..i found it interesting that the Harrow Didn't Have To Do A Darn Thing..to the Haruch for them to bleed and bruise,,not a darn thing!..In other words,,the Haruch maimed themselves..Seems to me that is the whole point of carrying a Conflict over so many years..or never rising above a conflicted state..You Are Only Harming Yourself.
If she withdrew from exaltation, she would be forced to think- And every thought led to fear and contradictions; to dilemmas for which she was unprepared.
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Post by danlo »

That's terribly zen, and I was trying to be so mundane tonight. :P
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Post by Zarathustra »

Regarding the Harrow's desire for the ring and the Staff. I am really curious as to why that is.

As an Insequent, he cannot be blind to Linden's archetypal role in the history of the Earth. The Theomach and the Mahdoubt certainly were. For what reason would he choose to mess with that stuff? Does he want the Earth destroyed and Foul loosed on the cosmos?

... or ... even the Mahdoubt sees Linden's path as being dangerous and risky. Yet she chooses to trust Linden. Perhaps the Harrow, knowing the same about Linden, does not?

Does the Harrow, perhaps, think he is saving the world?
Very interesting indeed! He seems a bit too arrogant and willing to use people for my tastes, but I suppose he could justify such actions in his mind by thinking that he is saving the world. Still, something about him causes me to doubt that his intentions are that noble. Perhaps this is just author misdirection.

I think he wants Linden to be angry. I think he was literal about needing her wrath, and that wrath nourishing him. And the best way to piss her off is to try to take the power she needs to save her son. It seems he's trying to evoke a wild response out of her (though this sounds a bit too much like Foul himself).

Malik, you started off really well, peeling this one open. I hope you finish it. I found quite a lot in this chapter to discuss, my list of notes is very long. I shall have to limit myself to where we have broke.
Thanks. I'll try to do some more tonight, right after this post. But feel free to go beyond where I stopped. Don't let my procrastination stop you!
They attacked immediately upon the Harrow saying, "Lady, you have not inquired into the nature of my desires" and putting Linden into a paralysis/trance. If it was obvious that Linden was ensorcelled, then the Haruchai's response is explained.
Go back to page 349. They attacked as soon as they heard his "name," before he ever said that line about inquiring into his desires. And this was before she was put into stasis, because she reacted to their attack by shouting, "No!"
On page 349, SRD wrote: Before she could retort, however, a rush of movement behind the Harrow caught her attention. She looked past him in time to see the Humbled emerge from the darkness, flinging themselves as one at his undefended back.
This is two paragraphs before the line you referenced. So they were set off by his name, not what he did to Linden. They knew him--or at least his reputation.
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Post by Zarathustra »

I don’t trust the Harrow for similar reasons that I didn’t like Roger/Covenant:
On page 349, SRD wrote:He bowed with courtesy as elaborate as his apparel; but Linden did not. Already she was starting to loathe the sound of his voice. He was not the first to foretell failure for her. But he had hurt Anele.
On page 345, SRD wrote: His defeat of the horde resembled Roger’s and he croyel’s arrival in glamour.
It is interesting how easy it is to “defeat” Linden. She tries to say the Seven Words, tries to summon the Staff, but it’s all useless without will, without volition. Freewill is the ultimate power, everythign else is just a tool for freewill to enact its purpose. Take that away from someone, and it doesn’t matter how strong their tools are—they are powerless.

Yet, there is a difference between the Harrow’s “possession” and the possession she experienced under the Ravers’ influenence. “The voids of the Harrow’s eyes had simply grown as infinite as the heavens.” And I must add, because it’s so beautiful and relates back to the passage I quoted earlier: “But no stars sanctified them. No glimmering articulated their emptiness.”

So this wasn’t “evil,” necessarily, but merely empty.

I like that there is actually a physical way to threaten the Harrow: attack his eyes. He didn’t raise a hand to defend himself until Stave tried to gouge out his eyes. And, of course, his eyes are the central threat to Linden. In order to fight off the Haruchai’s new strategy, his attention is diverted. And that’s all the break Linden needs to shout, “Quern Ehstrel.”

Personally, I thought calling upon Mahdoubt’s name came a bit too quickly and fortuitously. It was like a failed attempt to mirror the “Nom!” moment of the 2nd Chronicles. We had just been given the information of Mahdoubt’s true name a chapter or two before. So not much time had passed between gaining this new power and using that power. Not enough time had passed to build our suspense. And it seemed like such a waste . . . a waste that Linden herself feels by the end of the chapter and the beginning of the next one. Sure, SRD is using the technique I praised in my first post of this thread, where he takes possible reader complaints and turns them into character issues (by Linden thinking the same thing we might think while reading this section), but it still leaves me feeling a little bit manipulated by the author.

The language Harrow uses when the Mahdoubt shows up is interesting.
On page 352, SRD wrote: If you do not extinguish yourself, the entire race of the Insequent will rise up to excoriate your intrusion. Every commandment of what we are requires—
So they have “commandments” which determine what they are. Where do these commandments come from? Lore? Law? Mutual agreement? Why are these commandments so strict that all the Insequent will rise up to enforce them . . . and yet this action is completely unnecessary because some ambiguous power causes the Mahdoubt to go crazy long before the full force of the Insequent would ever be necessary to enforce these “commandments?” Either the Harrow was just bluffing, or the Mahdoubt’s madness is self-inflicted. In other words, she not only brought it onto herself through her actions, but she as also the mechanism which caused it to happen. She “extinguished” herself. The Insequent rising up as an entire race to excoriate her wasn’t necessary.

The Harrow is outraged. The Mahdoubt responds with a technicality: you can't say I’ve intervened in your affairs unless I actually win this battle (i.e. get the Harrow to forswear his purpose towards Linden). An interesting technicality. Apparently, intent isn’t enough to send the Insequent into madness. They have to actually succeed in their attempts to thwart one another. Seems a bit picky to me, but hey, it’s their commandments.
On page 352, SRD wrote:Yet even your arrogance cannot proclaim that she has prevented your designs. Her intrusion has merely delayed them. She cannot be named inexculpate until she has coerced you to forswear your purpose against the lady’s person.
[Note: I didn't notice until going back to the Fatal Revenant forum for the first time in many months, that Wayfriend had noted the implications of the Harrow's name over a year ago. Honestly, it hadn't occurred to me until this dissection to look up the word, "harrow." I just wanted to give credit where credit was due. I don't think anyone brought it up before he did in the FR forum.]
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Post by wayfriend »

Malik23 wrote:I think he wants Linden to be angry. I think he was literal about needing her wrath, and that wrath nourishing him. And the best way to piss her off is to try to take the power she needs to save her son. It seems he's trying to evoke a wild response out of her (though this sounds a bit too much like Foul himself).
That would mean that he planned on Linden surviving his attack. That doesn't feel right - I feel like he would have destroyed her if he was able to. And we also know that his form of attack denied all access to Linden's abilities -- a poor strategy, if his goal was to provoke them.
Malik23 wrote:Go back to page 349. They attacked as soon as they heard his "name," before he ever said that line about inquiring into his desires.
Yes, you are correct. And that is strange.

However, Linden sensed his trying to mesmerize her for some time before this. So, still, it's possible that the Humbled detected this and that precipitated their attack.

Or, it's possible that they decided to attack long before. They had held back, taken up positions behind the stranger. Perhaps they had always intended to attack, and the timing isn't relative to anything happening in the conversation.
Malik23 wrote:It is interesting how easy it is to “defeat” Linden. She tries to say the Seven Words, tries to summon the Staff, but it’s all useless without will, without volition. Freewill is the ultimate power, everythign else is just a tool for freewill to enact its purpose. Take that away from someone, and it doesn’t matter how strong their tools are—they are powerless.
Again, I think back on Kasreyn. He, too, could almost effortlessly subdue Linden. But he could not due it to the Haruchai, who are inately stronger, more composed, and in control of themselves in a literal way.

This has always reminded me that Linden and Covenant are mere mortals. They're not intrinsicly superheroes.

Perhaps unfortunately, when I read about this happening again with the Harrow, I already have a pre-formed conclusion. The Harrow defeats Linden so easily because she is, after all and said and done, a mere mortal, not intrinsically a superhero.
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Post by Zarathustra »

The Harrow defeats Linden so easily because she is, after all and said and done, a mere mortal, not intrinsically a superhero.
But the Harrow is a "mere" mortal, too. I think it's all about willpower. I don't think there is a limit to how strong you can be, as long as you aren't the limiting factor yourself. I think that's what the white gold is, after all: will (or perhaps something closer to Nietzsche's "will to power"). Though "powers" can affect your will, I think ultimately you let those powers win in the end. Each of the Chronicles is a struggle against the different ways we lose this battle.

In the 1st Chronicles, Covenant's problem was not accessing his creative power because he was limiting himself through the strict "laws" of leprosy. In the 2nd Chronicles, his issue is too much power, and how to limit that with his will so that he's not destructive. Meanwhile, Linden was learning how to master her will in a similar though opposite way: her capacity for evil paralyzing her will, the counterpart to what Covenant was doing with the venom. And now, in the 3rd Chronicles, she is cut off from her will by powers like Esmer and the Harrow--powers which don't represent evil necessarily, but something in between. Now it's more about finding the right balance. Notice that part of the Harrow's name means: to break up and even off plowed ground. To break up and level (soil or land) with a harrow. Meanwhile, Esmer's chief conflict is an unstable "balance" between betrayal and aid. So she is being paralyzed in each case by issues of balance.

It's not a coincidence that her chief character conflict this time around is finding the balance between means and ends, doing "good" through "evil" means.
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Malik23 wrote:
The Harrow defeats Linden so easily because she is, after all and said and done, a mere mortal, not intrinsically a superhero.
But the Harrow is a "mere" mortal, too.
Being merely mortal means that you are not inately impervious to every form of attack. It doesn't mean you can't defend yourself, ever, but it does mean that there's gaps in your armor.

However, the Harrow picked the form of attack. He chose to go with his strength. And he happened to hit Linden's weakness. There's nothing about that that requires the Harrow to be inately superhuman. Only that he could choose the form of attack that he can best leverage.

The Harrow planned that encounter for days. After, he admits, learning everything there was to learn about Linden. Linden went in ignorant. Of course the result was in the Harrow's favor.

In fact, I'm sure the Harrow has weaknesses. The Mahdoubt found one.
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Posting the rest of my notes for this chapter.

:?: The Mahdoubt shows up immediately upon Linden uttering, "Quern Ehstrel". Can we conclude that Insequent can be compelled by their names? (If so, then Insequent have a pretty big weakness.)

:?: A lot of people have expressed that they hope the Mahdoubt will survive this encounter, that we'll meet her again. But I see too many pointers to this being finality for her. The Harrow says the madness "brings death swiftly in its wake". And the Mahdoubt says, "of a certainty, the Mahdoubt will perish". And "She prefers her own passing to a life in which she may behold the end of days".

End of days. :gulp:

:!!!: For me, the most momentous event in this chapter is Linden's retributory attack on the Harrow.
"I'm safe from you now, right?"

"Indeed."

"In that case," she repeated, "there's something you should know about me."

Again he laughed. "Elucidate, lady. If there can be aught that I do not know of you, I will -"

Softly, almost whispering, Linden pronounced, "The Mahdoubt is my friend."

As swift as anger, she summoned a howl of power from her Staff and hurled it straight into the Harrow's eyes.
This just makes me very, very sad. Linden has fallen from herself here. This is an impotent rage, demonstrating only that she is petty and small.

This is what she had become.

This is the consequences of Skyweir. This is the outcome of her "hardening" and being "fused".

All her companions notice this. Stave says, "You are altered, Chosen and Sun-Sage. The woman who accompanied the ur-Lord Thomas Covenant to the redemption of the Land would not have struck thus." And the Mahdount chides, "You're challenge is unseemly."

And Linden replies, "I don't care."

She can no longer cry. No longer show compassion. Or forgive. She doesn't care abour her display of pettiness. She could no longer bear sorrow or shame. Under Melenkurion Skyweir, such emotions had been clad in granite. She has built herself a wall, hidden herself behind a countenance of stone.

She is no longer open. Nothing enters her any more. She's closed off to the world, her friends.

How can she ever be the healer that she was, if she is no longer open?

That really worries me.

:!!!: Finally, let me mention the matter of the history of the Bloodguard. This is what I feel Malik called "most important 'revisionist' stories we’ve seen thus far in the Last Chronicles".

Unexpectedly, for me, the story about the Vizard doesn't wrap up with his defeat, and the origin of ak-Haru. It goes further.
"It taught us humiliation."

"When, at a later time, we elected to measure our worth, we did so in pain. In pain, we challenged High Lord Kevin and all of his great Council. And when our challenge was met, not with combat, but with open-hearted respect and generosity, our pain was multiplied, for we were accorded a worth which we had not won. Therefore, we swore the Vow of the Bloodguard, setting aside homes and wives and sleep and death that we might once again merit our own esteem."
I know there's some real Bloodguard fans out there. I don't know about you, but this just hit me hard. In pain. The Vow was uttered in pain!!! Not to recognize the beauty and charity of the Lords, but to asuage the pain of the humiliation that they found everywhere.

There's no wonder that this was a secret.
"It's also why you abandoned your Vow." She was learning to understand what the Vizard's whims had cost Stave's people. "When Korik, Sill, and Doar failed, you decided that you didn't deserve to help the Lords fight Lord Foul."
Pain so deep and so strong that it never left them. When the Bloodguard of the Mission to Seareach failed, it was the straw that broke the camel's back.
"And it's why you never actually got together to fight the Clave, even though your people were being slaughtered," shed to feed the Sunbane. "Even after Covenant saved you, only a few of you joined us. You knew that we were going to search for the One Tree, and you didn't consider yourselves worthy to face your ak-Haru. You couldn't commit yourselves to defend the Land until Brinn proved that he could take the Guardian's place.
Pain kept them from fighting the Clave.

(Wait, weren't they fighting the Clave? Wasn't that Clave mind control thing an issue here?)

Pain kept them from joining Covenant in large numbers.

(Wait, don't they "suffice"?)
"Until he became the ak-Haru himself.

"That's when you finally started to believe in yourselves again."

The Masters had carried their perception of worth too far. Now she knew why. After millennia of loss, they had regained their self-respect, but they had never learned how to grieve. Liand was right about them. They could only find healing in the attempt to match Brinn's example. Their humiliation had made them too rigid for any other release.
So Brinn finally freed the Haruchai from all this pain.

And that created the Masters. The masters are "unhumiliated" Haruchai, something I guess we have never seen before. Perhaps we should call them "unhumbled". No wonder there are the Humbled - it's a Haruchai way of honoring their past, an attempt I guess to not let all that unhumiliation go to their heads! A way to grieve.
"So of course," Linden continued. "the Humbled attacked the Harrow before he did anything to threaten us. They had to. He's one of the Insequent.

That's all the provocation they needed."

"Indeed." Stave stood in darkness, as unrevealing as the stars. "Aspiring to Brinn's triumph, they now desire to prove themselves against any of the Insequent. For that reason, among others, I did not wish to speak of the Mandoubt, or of the stranger, until we were certain of their nature."
So Linden stays on a roll, and takes it all the way to the present time, solving the mystery of the Humbled attacking the Harrow. They attacked him because now these "unhumbled Humbled" want to measure themselves against Insequent.

Okay, that's a lot of stuff.

Frankly, I find that this jars with what we know of the Bloodguard especially. That the Lords did not inspire them to the Vow, but rather the Vow was an attempt to counter a feeling of humiliation.

Does this contradict Gildenfire?
In [u]Gildenfire[/u] was wrote:The great gates stood open for three days while the Haruchai commanders tasted the grandeur of Revelstone. They experienced the laughing genial power of the Giants who had made the Keep, received the confident offer of Kevin's Council to supply the Haruchai freely whatever they needed for as long as their need lasted. When the commanders returned to their army, they sat astride prancing Ranyhyn, which had come from the Plains of Ra at Kevin's call and had chosen to bear the Haruchai. Korik and his peers were of one mind. Something new was upon them, something beyond instinctive kinship with the Ranyhyn, beyond friendship and awe for the Giants, beyond even the fine entrancement of Revelstone itself. The Haruchai were fighters, accustomed to wrest what they required: they could not accept gifts without making meet return.

Therefore that night the army from the Westron Mountains gathered under the south wall of Revelstone. All the Haruchai joined their minds together and out of their common strength forged the metal of the Vow ...
These don't sound like the same stories to me.
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Post by Aleksandr »

We had just been given the information of Mahdoubt’s true name a chapter or two before. So not much time had passed between gaining this new power and using that power.

This also recalls how in TWL Covenant used the Word of Command on Vain scarcely a day after he had been given it. I recall being very mildly annoyed when I read that for the first time, thinking it was being wasted.
The Vow was uttered in pain!!!

This makes sense, and it throws more light on how the Bloodguard reacted when the Vow was broken in the 1st Chrons. I recall TC thinking that he could have found a better answer to that failure, just as Bannor could have rescued the snakebitten child easily. But he was seeing the Vow a something sowrn in a moment of intemperate enthusiasm. Instead it was sworn to justify an earlier failure and the doubt that arose from it. There's the opening by which Lord Foul was able to turn the Vow to courruption.
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Post by wayfriend »

Aleksandr wrote:
The Vow was uttered in pain!!!
This makes sense, and it throws more light on how the Bloodguard reacted when the Vow was broken in the 1st Chrons.
But the first Chronicles stood on their own. The Breaking of the Vow was due to the Haruchai necessity for absolutes.

So this throws a different light, not a new light, if you see what I mean. The backstory has been changed.
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Post by Vraith »

Just a few snippets I haven't worked my way through completely yet.
So this throws a different light, not a new light, if you see what I mean. The backstory has been changed.
Or maybe an addtional light/complication of backstory? By which I mean they would likely have sworn the vow anyway (value given, value received), but the humiliation made the vow essential, given their nature. {semi-bad analogy, but think of the number of medical researchers who choose to focus on breast cancer or HIV when a loved one succumbs to one of these illnesses}
And anyone with a family who volunteers to go to war knows both the pain and the value of that choice.

What I find fascinating/irritating about the Har. : they always say from this we learned this. But they never actually learn at all. Those that do are abandoned. You have to admire the commitment, but despair at the impossiblility. Like a dog that not only goes back to the master that beats it, but starts beating itself, too.

And Harrow: I wonder if he, in fact, has won this round anyway...not in the way he would have preferred since he doesn't "have" her wrath, but he has certainly incited it, and she has shown her "willingness" to use it.(heads I win, tails you lose). I qualify willingness with quotes because there might be something very dangerous implied here: a variation on "give them back something broken." This isn't the first time Linden has had her will broken....

Someone mentioned the Elo's apparent trust on the Inseq. I think this is pretty scary: I find the Elo. inherently untrustworthy.

That's it for now. Thanks for listening. Interesting thread.
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