Staff of Law = Wotan's Staff

[Fist and Faith]

Stop arguing about the Christian/TCTC connection!

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Stop arguing about the Christian/TCTC connection!

Hmmm. "Faith" - in what?

[Fist and Faith]

Me

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I don't believe in magic,
I don't believe in I-ching,
I don't believe in bible,
I don't believe in tarot,
I don't believe in Hitler,
I don't believe in Jesus,
I don't believe in Kennedy,
I don't believe in Buddha,
I don't believe in mantra,
I don't believe in Gita,
I don't believe in yoga,
I don't believe in kings,
I don't believe in Elvis,
I don't believe in Zimmerman,
I don't believe in Beatles,
I just believe in me

So what's up with the "fist" part of your handle?

[Fist and Faith]

"Fist and Faith" is something the Bloodguard sometimes said. Sort of a salute. I take it to mean, "We will prevail. Our fists and our faith will see us through."

[thewormoftheworld'send]

So the "faith" part really has nothing to do with you yourself.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

So "fist and faith" is a Bloodguard motto. What then is the connection between "fist" (violence) and "faith" (religious values)? Do they support their values with violence because their beliefs are not rationally justifiable?

[rdhopeca]

So "fist and faith" is a Bloodguard motto. What then is the connection between "fist" (violence) and "faith" (religious values)? Do they support their values with violence because their beliefs are not rationally justifiable?

I believe this was fleshed out in Gilden-Fire. You are again confusing the meaning of the story with religion. The Bloodguard faith is in themselves: "We suffice".

[thewormoftheworld'send]

So "fist and faith" is a Bloodguard motto. What then is the connection between "fist" (violence) and "faith" (religious values)? Do they support their values with violence because their beliefs are not rationally justifiable?

I believe this was fleshed out in Gilden-Fire. You are again confusing the meaning of the story with religion. The Bloodguard faith is in themselves: "We suffice".

Guess what -- I never read that story. And I freely and openly admit it.
It was summarized sufficiently (in Tull's Tale, or...?) so I didn't bother to buy it.

So unfortunately "we suffice" doesn't have the same effect on me as it does on you. I see it in terms of a more Randian triad: Faith - force - collectivism, where all three are definitely present with the Bloodguard more inherently than it ever could with "normal" humans.

[edit]

I should explain why it is more inherent. It's because of their collective ESP abilities, and collective memories.

[Zarathustra]

Since the Bloodguard have no religion, I think we can safely assume that the "faith" part of "fist and faith" wasn't a faith in a god or any other religious notion. I always thought it was more like "keeping the faith," i.e. remaining true to their Vow. They promised to protect the Lords, and the earth itself sealed that promise with Earthpower. The Bloodguard gave up wives, weakness, and mortality (at least by old age) in order to preserve their Vow.

[Fist and Faith]

So the "faith" part really has nothing to do with you yourself.

No. I picked a phrase I really like from books for my username here.

However, "faith" does not have to have anything to do with religion. We can have faith that our spouses are not cheating on us, eh? The Bloodguard had faith in their worldview, and in their abilities. And that faith served them pretty darned well. They were able to do extraordinary things that no other characters in the books could do. Extraordinary things with their Fists, and otherwise.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

All I can hope to do here is keep repeating that same definition of "religious" over and over again until someone decides to take it to heart that this is my view on all that.

wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=religious
extremely scrupulous and conscientious; "religious in observing the rules of health"

This is the third time, shall we make it four?

[thewormoftheworld'send]

So the "faith" part really has nothing to do with you yourself.

No. I picked a phrase I really like from books for my username here.

So that explains it.

However, "faith" does not have to have anything to do with religion. We can have faith that our spouses are not cheating on us, eh? The Bloodguard had faith in their worldview, and in their abilities. And that faith served them pretty darned well. They were able to do extraordinary things that no other characters in the books could do. Extraordinary things with their Fists, and otherwise.

There are different definitions of "faith." Conflating them doesn't fly with me. However, I never said the Bloodguard worshipped a God or gods. I simply asked about the relationship between faith and violence inherent to their motto.

In the example of having faith in your spouse not cheating on us, that would not be a good example of defending faith with fists, unless one is a wife-beater. But we KNOW that's not the same "faith" as that held by the Bloodguard. We KNOW that their faith is more inherent to their being, and that it forms a religious (not churchy) structure for their lives, as strict as Covenant's leprosy: it is a belief system.

[Fist and Faith]

Zeph?!?

[Zarathustra]

extremely scrupulous and conscientious; "religious in observing the rules of health"
This is the third time, shall we make it four?

I can't speak for others, but it might surprise you that I don't read every single post you make.

Forgive me if I misunderstood your use of "religious." I admit it is difficult to reconcile the idea that you imply no "churchy" meaning (as you said) to the word after dedicating so many posts to pointing out Christian comparisons that "almost shriek at [you] from between the lines of SRD's novels," as you said elsewhere. You claim that the Christian comparisons are so prevalent that when you point them out, you're merely "noting the obvious," but then you seem to get upset when people think it's obvious that you mean "Christian" when you interpret the Chronicles in "religious" terms. This is an extremely fine line you are drawing, and in my opinion, you hop back and forth across that line constantly. Don't you see how that might cause confusion? How can the Chronicles be so full of Christian comparisons that you need to start two threads just to capture them all, and yet no one is supposed to think you mean "Christian" when you say "religious?"

Perhaps I'm hyper-sensitive to this issue. But your posts could be a little more clear.

[variol son]

Zeph?!?

Don't joke about such things.

[rdhopeca]

So "fist and faith" is a Bloodguard motto. What then is the connection between "fist" (violence) and "faith" (religious values)? Do they support their values with violence because their beliefs are not rationally justifiable?

I believe this was fleshed out in Gilden-Fire. You are again confusing the meaning of the story with religion. The Bloodguard faith is in themselves: "We suffice".

Guess what -- I never read that story.

oh, my bad...i'll try to brush up on what you have or haven't read before i answer your next question...but hey...now you know.

[Fist and Faith]

Zeph?!?

Don't joke about such things.

Yeah, I only hope it's a joke!

[rdhopeca]

extremely scrupulous and conscientious; "religious in observing the rules of health"
This is the third time, shall we make it four?

I can't speak for others, but it might surprise you that I don't read every single post you make.

Forgive me if I misunderstood your use of "religious." I admit it is difficult to reconcile the idea that you imply no "churchy" meaning (as you said) to the word after dedicating so many posts to pointing out Christian comparisons that "almost shriek at [you] from between the lines of SRD's novels," as you said elsewhere. You claim that the Christian comparisons are so prevalent that when you point them out, you're merely "noting the obvious," but then you seem to get upset when people think it's obvious that you mean "Christian" when you interpret the Chronicles in "religious" terms. This is an extremely fine line you are drawing, and in my opinion, you hop back and forth across that line constantly. Don't you see how that might cause confusion? How can the Chronicles be so full of Christian comparisons that you need to start two threads just to capture them all, and yet no one is supposed to think you mean "Christian" when you say "religious?"

Perhaps I'm hyper-sensitive to this issue. But your posts could be a little more clear.

I don't think you are being sensitive, I am right there with you. Besides, how can I read all of WotWE's posts now that I have to catalog his personal library?

[Vraith]

First, I should say, I'm only posting here because I'm tracking down every forum malik posted in
So that's a lie, but thanks for nominating me noob of the year malik.
Anyway..on topic (RECENT topic, not title of the thread, but thread returns at the end): There's a lot here, some of which I'd be stealing from if I hadn't thought it already.
There's no reason faith has to be in any particular thing. But it is necessary to do anything (know anything) The Bloodguard 'motto', I think, is their necessary compromise between their nature and the world. Each one must have 'faith' to exist..(well, sustain existance, anyway..at the very least they must believe 'if I hit that rabbit with this stone, it will die, and I will have food).
Yet they are extravagently commited to absolutes. Yet, they are a communal species due to mindspeech. Yet their nature is combat. So they end up being absolutely commited, having true faith, in an idea (arrived at, it must be said, by the ONE victor), but then they lose. They have to decide if it was the losers fault, or the victors success: the problem is (and the reason they are in the role they are) is that they never question the faith itself, and due in part to this never learn why they really failed And I think, in SRD's sneaky way, they are at least partly aware of this, because they 'ostracize' failures that disagree, but don't kill them (as opposed to those they know serve corruption)
SO...(the loop back) the haruchai have a very rigid 'bargain' with existance [Fist AND Faith] Wotan's staff, it's power, is due to bargains. The staff of law is ALSO a bargain...first between men and earthpower, but symbolically probably also between order/chaos, good/evil, etc. In a way this makes the 'arch of time' the enforcer. The staff is the tool of one kind of power, but (like wotans) it is not in any way the power itself.
And there is a different power entirely that allows the bargain to exist to begin with.
And so I blab.[/i]