Staff of Law = Wotan's Staff

[thewormoftheworld'send]

The concept of "Redemption" has a Christian origin, but it is not used in a Christian manner in the Chronicles. The concept of "sacrifice" has a Christian origin, but it is not used in a Christian manner.

What I mean by a "Christian manner" is that they are not used to further the teachings of Jesus. They are used merely to support an entertaining novel.

The concept of "paradox" has an Existentialist origin, but it is not used to further the philosophy of Kierkegaard or any other Existentialist. Existentialism may be more foundational to the creation of the Chronicles because of the paradox of white gold and the fact that Existentialists claim that humans are ever at war with themselves.

[Rocksister]

Yggsdrasil? Isn't that also the name of a powerful tree in the D&D series about the surface-dwelling elves of the forest? OMG, do the ripoffs go on and on forever? I have to get Das Reingold. I'm way too curious now not to read it.

[Vraith]

The concept of "paradox" has an Existentialist origin, but it is not used to further the philosophy of Kierkegaard or any other Existentialist. Existentialism may be more foundational to the creation of the Chronicles because of the paradox of white gold and the fact that Existentialists claim that humans are ever at war with themselves.

This is interesting. Also, though, (maybe...speculation coming) a bit misleading and perhaps important.
Paradox may be what you say in the west, but not in the east. I'd be oversimplifying and overstating a bit to say paradox is central to eastern religions/philosophies that are ancient..but not by much. And SRD has obvious influences from the east. The important difference, I think, is that for a western existentialist the universe is inherently meaningless (any meaning is made, not preexisting) but in the east (again, huge oversimplification) the universe is inherently meaningful, it is our unenlightened state that is the problem.
I speculate that the western variety of paradox is where things started, but the eastern relationship with paradox may be where we're going.
Just a thought.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

The concept of "paradox" has an Existentialist origin, but it is not used to further the philosophy of Kierkegaard or any other Existentialist. Existentialism may be more foundational to the creation of the Chronicles because of the paradox of white gold and the fact that Existentialists claim that humans are ever at war with themselves.

This is interesting. Also, though, (maybe...speculation coming) a bit misleading and perhaps important.
Paradox may be what you say in the west, but not in the east. I'd be oversimplifying and overstating a bit to say paradox is central to eastern religions/philosophies that are ancient..but not by much. And SRD has obvious influences from the east. The important difference, I think, is that for a western existentialist the universe is inherently meaningless (any meaning is made, not preexisting) but in the east (again, huge oversimplification) the universe is inherently meaningful, it is our unenlightened state that is the problem.
I speculate that the western variety of paradox is where things started, but the eastern relationship with paradox may be where we're going.
Just a thought.

I'd say you might be overstating Yin/Yang as a paradox. I think you would be overstating anything in Eastern mysticism interpreted as a "paradox," or let's say, you're giving it a Western "spin." I would like to know where Eastern mysticism has any such concept as "paradox." The concept of "paradox" is a product of Western logic.

I certainly do constantly find Yin/Yang in the Chronicles, but it is not used in the same respect as, for example, the paradox of white gold. This paradox is represented as two contradictory attributes in the same person or object; yin/yang, on the other hand, occurs in the order of time, not at the same time, as good weather follows bad weather, or "what goes around comes around."

[SGuilfoyle1966]

I think people need to keep it clear that if SRD was influenced, it was by Wagner's Ring cycle, not Norse Mythos in general.
Wagner took the Teutonic versions of the norse and did his own thing with them.
And Donaldson was inspiered by them, not copying them.
I too was struck when I read the intro afterward to The Real Story, however.
I really hope he isn't that influenced by it all. In The Ring Cycle, it ends with Wotans deals dissolved in the Rhine as Siegriend is dead.
You see the Valhalla burning off in the distance, signifying Gotterdamerung has occured.
Or Ragnarok. But you don't get to see it.
If you ant to go for furhter explanation of Jormungand, remember his other name -- the Midgard Serpent. The World Serpent.
He stays out of sight, wrapped around the world, UNTIL he wakes up one last time. When? Ragnarok.
That's the Norse End of the world.

[Vraith]

I'd say you might be overstating Yin/Yang as a paradox. I think you would be overstating anything in Eastern mysticism interpreted as a "paradox," or let's say, you're giving it a Western "spin." I would like to know where Eastern mysticism has any such concept as "paradox." The concept of "paradox" is a product of Western logic.

I was going to say exactly, I am "spinning" it a bit because the parallel isn't precise...something is always lost in translation (and much smarter people than me have tried to explain the difference in word/logic, and failed), but then (and this is probably debatable):

for example, the paradox of white gold. This paradox is represented as two contradictory attributes in the same person or object; yin/yang, on the other hand, occurs in the order of time, not at the same time, as good weather follows bad weather, or "what goes around comes around."

yin/yang DO occur, at the same time, in the same person/place. There may be a difference in ascendance, or maybe dominance is a better term, but no difference in existance of the two. At this point, I have to say that I can't speak for all eastern thought, but only the one interpretation have experience with, that the common symbol/thought is, at least in part, a warning about human existance (somewhat akin to nietsche's hunt monsters/become one..though nietsche hated eastern philosophy) pursue one, become the opposite. Eventually, one transcends this (or at least CAN transcend...I don't think anyone gaurantees it)
As regards TC, among other things, he is a divided being, at first he was trying to simply survive, now he is trying to become whole: If he remains "western" insisting on paradox, he will fail. If he reconciles the fact that paradox is a fallacy (or, as you say, and are correct about as far as I know, an artifact of his reasoning) and accepts...then he succeeds.
I don't know..it's incredibly difficult to talk about this.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I'd say you might be overstating Yin/Yang as a paradox. I think you would be overstating anything in Eastern mysticism interpreted as a "paradox," or let's say, you're giving it a Western "spin." I would like to know where Eastern mysticism has any such concept as "paradox." The concept of "paradox" is a product of Western logic.

I was going to say exactly, I am "spinning" it a bit because the parallel isn't precise...something is always lost in translation (and much smarter people than me have tried to explain the difference in word/logic, and failed), but then (and this is probably debatable):

for example, the paradox of white gold. This paradox is represented as two contradictory attributes in the same person or object; yin/yang, on the other hand, occurs in the order of time, not at the same time, as good weather follows bad weather, or "what goes around comes around."

yin/yang DO occur, at the same time, in the same person/place. There may be a difference in ascendance, or maybe dominance is a better term, but no difference in existance of the two. At this point, I have to say that I can't speak for all eastern thought, but only the one interpretation have experience with, that the common symbol/thought is, at least in part, a warning about human existance (somewhat akin to nietsche's hunt monsters/become one..though nietsche hated eastern philosophy) pursue one, become the opposite. Eventually, one transcends this (or at least CAN transcend...I don't think anyone gaurantees it)
As regards TC, among other things, he is a divided being, at first he was trying to simply survive, now he is trying to become whole: If he remains "western" insisting on paradox, he will fail. If he reconciles the fact that paradox is a fallacy (or, as you say, and are correct about as far as I know, an artifact of his reasoning) and accepts...then he succeeds.
I don't know..it's incredibly difficult to talk about this.

Paradox is an element of the Land, but yin/yang, light/darkness, life/death, LF/Creator, are transcendent of the Land. In the Land, the wielder of white gold becomes representative of paradox. If yin/yang is equivalent to fate, it is not a necessary fate, free-will ultimately reigns supreme. It is within human capacity to overcome the necessity imposed by fate. This is made possible through recognizing the fact that the two opposing universal forces are not completely antithetical, and in fact they require each other. The one makes the other possible, just as death is necessary to life, one precludes the other. LF believes that TC has only the capacity for death and destruction (because he is a stupid ("anile and peurile") Unbeliever. The Creator believes that TC's Unbelief has the power to preserve. Neither side of the struggle is correct. The answer is to maintain a disciplined balance, the leper's discipline, between the two.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Yggsdrasil? Isn't that also the name of a powerful tree in the D&D series about the surface-dwelling elves of the forest? OMG, do the ripoffs go on and on forever? I have to get Das Reingold. I'm way too curious now not to read it.

D&D? No, it is from Norse mythology. D&D was the ripoff.

SRD was up to his neck in these Norse classics during his college career. Their influence on his ideas is very, very obvious.

[Fist and Faith]

*bumped* for SGuilfoyle1966.

[Frostheart Grueburn]

Can't believe this thread had hitherto slipped my attention despite copious lurking. XD Anyhow, for me, SRD's Norse influences have been quite obvious all the while, making me chuckle every now and then. Several derivations have already been mentioned, but so far I haven't descried the following assumptions, at least not in this scale:

The Giants of Home--Jötunheimr in Old Norse translates directly as "Gianthome", which, in my opinion, proves that the Jötnar serve as the ultimate inspiration for SRD's Giants, including the fact that they're described as comely, sharp-witted, and very wise in the original myths. Their lives furthermore lasted for centuries, unless a certain species-ist dummkopf did not rush to cave their heads in with his oh-so-fancy hammer. This is wherefore I almost expected them to start shape-shifting and creating illusions à la Útgarða-Loki, but it would appear SRD decided to grant these powers to the Elohim instead.

I've also kept wondering whether he might have stumbled upon Estonian mythology at some point, regarding the whole sea-faring bit. :shrug: On the other hand, Ægir son of Fornjótr the Jötunn was a god of sea. Finland also teems with old legends about Giants (or Hiisi/Hiidet/Kalevanpojat in Finnish) as the builders of churches and various large stone constructs, like the so-called jatulinkirkot (Jötunn-churches) from the Neolithic period, found in Pohjanmaa, Finland, recently proven to bear similar astronomical properties as Irish Neolithic burial mounds or Stonehenge in the GB. (An example here, caption available in English below the image.)

After garnering more information about the Ur-viles, I built a mental reed-bridge, at least powerful enough to bear the weight of a single ant, between them and the Norse Svartálfar. Both are dark/black-skinned, live beneath the earth, and are cunning with lore. Obviously cannot post 3rd chrons spoilers here, but yet another, even stronger connection seemed to arise there (one'd probably spot this rather easily by reading the Svartálfar entry on Wikipedia, though). Eh, I'll just scribble more tosh in the AATE forum.

Thoughts/other new discoveries?

[Fist and Faith]

Ah. I was about to bump this for you, but there you are.

[Frostheart Grueburn]

I tend to stick my nose in, if Norse mythology raises its head somewhere.

[Fist and Faith]

I know the feeling. Been reading the mythology for many years. Great stuff! I have more than a dozen Mjölnir necklaces of different designs, and somebody just brought me a Thor statue back from Norway.

[Frostheart Grueburn]

I know the feeling. Been reading the mythology for many years. Great stuff! I have more than a dozen Mjölnir necklaces of different designs, and somebody just brought me a Thor statue back from Norway.

That's cool! Which sagas/epics have you read so far?
I've been trying to hunt down translations of some of the more obscure pieces (like Bárðar saga Snæfellsáss, which is closer to my own interests than many other Icelandic settler stories), but to my chagrin have noticed that some texts exist only in out-of-print books or have no English/Swedish/Finnish versions at all.

If you ever get around traveling in Scandinavia yourself, Sweden remains also a veritable option for anyone interested in Vikings/Vendels and Norse myths, and it's much cheaper than Norway. Some of the old burial grounds littered with huge barrows and rune stones, like Gamla Uppsala or Anundshög in Västerås, are simply breathtaking and more or less linked to the pseudo-mythological kings.

[Frostheart Grueburn]

Female Jötunn warriors

Something about The First and

Spoiler

Coldspray's troop of almost female-only Swordmainnir in FR/AATE

has kept pestering me, claiming it's yet another polished déjà vu. Apparently some broken connection in the Norse mythology section of my brain re-bridged itself recently, making me recall Fenja and Menja. They're two giantesses who are brought to king Fróði's court as slaves and forced to grind riches for him in a magical mill. The poem includes a few interesting verses about their past deeds.

Now are come
to the king's house
two prescient damsels,
Fenja and Menja;--
the powerful maidens,
in thraldom held.
--
"Thou was not, Fróði!
for thyself over-wise,
or a friend of men,
when thralls thou boughtest;
for strength thou chosest them,
and for their looks,
but of their race
didst not inquire.
"Stout was Hrungnir,
and his father,
yet was Þjazi
stronger than they;
Iði and Aurnir
our relations are,
brothers of the mountain giants
from whom we are born.--
But afterwards, in Sweden,
we prescient two
among people went,
chased the bear,
and shattered shields;
went against
a grey-sarked host,
aided one prince,
another overthrew,
afforded the good
Gotþorm help.
Quiet I sat not
ere we warriors felled.
Thus we went on
all those winters,
so that in conflicts
we were known;
there we carved,
with our sharp spears,
blood from wounds,
and reddened brands."

Wish I also could remember the title that discussed some of the attributes of NM giantesses, particularly their aggressiveness and why they often loomed as the more cunning or insidious power behind the males (Grendel's mother, for one). Considering influences, this is not a matter to chuck instantly out of the window:

Spoiler

Particularly, as there's a passage in FR where Coldspray accounts how men rarely join the ranks of warriors, and how the giants therefore jest that their hearts are too soft for battle.

[Frostheart Grueburn]

I don't know if I'm trying to bottle mist here, but this is something I'd definitely inquire about in the GI, if it weren't closed. As you can see, I've scratched my head over SRD's possible Estonian mythology influences some posts above. Fine, we do meet general seafaring giants in Norse myths, what with the Baltic Sea sloshing around hereabouts and boats thus being one of the most mundane modes of transportation, but still not anything quite as 'eyebrow-rising' as Soini Kalevipoeg's escapades. I'm talking about a particular chapter where the adventurous giant builds a strong ship in order to sail to the end of the world, much due to simple curiosity to behold strange lands beyond his home. Even though he's known for building massive stone constructions, he at least does not form the vessel out of stone, but of silver, and--as far as I understood from the original-language text--outfits it with a mixed crew consisting of giants (his kin), humans, and sorcerers (targ). They journey to fantastic realms "kus kuked söövad kulda, haned hõbedat, varesed vaskeand, targad linnud taalrid" (where roosters eat gold, geese silver, crows bronze, wise birds thalers) and for instance meet giants (hiis, hiiglane) that utterly dwarf even Kalev's kin by size. Aboard the ship, they have a keeltarg, which translates approximately to 'language-sorcerer', ie. someone who can understand all the tongues of men and animals by magic. This especially amuses me, considering that SRD's giants possess a similar talent, even if on a different level.

Kalevipoeg's personality resembles that of Foamfollower to some degree: he's usually kind, helpful, gentle, tends to burst into song every now and then, but is prone to fits of berserker-like anger (particularly if he's drunk), during which he may kill or wreak landwasting havoc without any rational thought. His life furthermore ends tragically, which is of course a common theme in Finnic folklore, but even so.

I'm wondering if this might be plain coincidence or if SRD indeed has stumbled upon these materials at some point. Mythology-wise, we're still roaming around the Nordic region after all. I have no idea how many of these stories have ever been translated to English, but some years back, I did locate a very, very botched-up public domain English e-book containing a few Kalevipoeg legends. This is also a different version of the tale I'm referring to above, but might perhaps give an idea. The translation induces severe cringing, however.

Thoughts? Or am I overanalyzing?