Covenant as Lord Foul

[wayfriend]

BTW, now that we know how the story unfolds, did Covenant warn her that he is dead?

"Remember that I'm dead."

Could not this just as easily have been a straightforward clue as to where to find him? The Dead gather in Andelain. Linden would (did) remember this.

Admittedly, the entire context was "Go now, beloved. While you can. Just be wary of me. Remember that I'm dead."

However, I'm not unfamiliar with Donaldson's ambiguities of prose. This juxtaposition may be misleading rather than informative. After all, for what reason would Linden need to be wary of Covenant because he is Dead? And aren't there other reasons to be wary of Covenant -- for example, because he is also Lord Foul now?

Non sequitoriously, let me add that I always thought that Covenant's ability to possess Anele indicated that Covenant is somehow different than what he had always been. He abhores possession, and had no ability to do it ever. Lord Foul can, and he enjoys it, and has proven that he can possess Anele. So could it be that Covenant can now possess Anele, and is willing to, because he and Lord Foul are now one?

[thewormoftheworld'send]

BTW, now that we know how the story unfolds, did Covenant warn her that he is dead?

"Remember that I'm dead."

Could not this just as easily have been a straightforward clue as to where to find him? The Dead gather in Andelain. Linden would (did) remember this.

No, it was TC giving her an oblique forewarning of Roger's intent.

[Zarathustra]

BTW, now that we know how the story unfolds, did Covenant warn her that he is dead?

"Remember that I'm dead."

Could not this just as easily have been a straightforward clue as to where to find him? The Dead gather in Andelain. Linden would (did) remember this.

No, it was TC giving her an oblique forewarning of Roger's intent.

Very oblique! Why didn't he just say, "It's Roger!" Could have saved her a lot of trouble.

[wayfriend]

Why didn't he just say, "It's Roger!" Could have saved her a lot of trouble.

Do you ask this in seriousness? Because there is a mysterious "he" who can stop Covenant's communications through Anele if he dares say the wrong thing.

"He opposes me. Here, like this, he's stronger than I am."

"I can only say all of this once. And I can't explain it. As soon as he notices what I'm doing, he'll stop me. If I even start to say his name, he'll stop me before I can finish."

So Covenant can't say "Watch out, it's Roger," or "I'll be in Andelain when you want to find me," or anything direct and obvious.

He, I think, would be Lord Foul. But it could be anyone.

I wonder .... if he and Lord Foul actually share an indentity at this point, it may be that Covenant can't say anything that Lord Foul won't permit him to say. It may be that he can't say anything unless it serves Foul as well as helps Linden.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

BTW, now that we know how the story unfolds, did Covenant warn her that he is dead?

"Remember that I'm dead."

Could not this just as easily have been a straightforward clue as to where to find him? The Dead gather in Andelain. Linden would (did) remember this.

No, it was TC giving her an oblique forewarning of Roger's intent.

Very oblique! Why didn't he just say, "It's Roger!" Could have saved her a lot of trouble.

From my understanding of SRD's philosophy, I would say it has to do with knowledge limiting choice. SRD does not have TC trying to set Linden on any particular path, she has to find her own way and form her own choices. To use words to set someone on a particular course would be the Despiser's methodology.

On the other hand, LF did not speak to Linden in the 2nd Chronicles' beginning because her path was already laid out, no speaking was necessary. It was laid out for her by her father, by her decision to euthanize her mother, by her health-sense and by the Sunbane.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Why didn't he just say, "It's Roger!" Could have saved her a lot of trouble.

Do you ask this in seriousness? Because there is a mysterious "he" who can stop Covenant's communications through Anele if he dares say the wrong thing.

"He" would be Kastenessen. "He" literally scorched Linden's face with fire the first time he appeared in Anele, and that was right after she spoke to TC through Anele. "The Law binds me in so many ways." "he opposes me. Here, like this, he's stronger than I am."

What Law binds TC? Which Law could be left? I can only think of two, the laws of Time and Creation.

[wayfriend]

There's only one problem with the theory that Kastenessen is the "he" that keeps Covenant from speaking. And that is, he's insane. It doesn't seem like he can put two and two together.

Is Kastenessen actually after anything? I don't think so, at least I haven't seen anything to indicate he is. He's got power, and Foul is using him. Foul had to give that power to Roger, via a hand, in order to that power to be weilded by someone who can think.

I can't see Kastenessen comprehending, never mind caring, what Covenant says.

And he could easily have been sent in by Lord Foul, or Roger, or anyone, in order to breath that fiery breath on Linden. He didn't have to even know why.

Meanwhile the Lord Foul theory seems to resonate. It's been a theme throughout the Chronicles that Foul's plans and Foul's defeat share the same road for a long, long way. (Remember Chatty Foul from Runes?) So I like the idea that Covenant can only help Linden when he is also helping Foul. Since the path is the same, it makes sense that Covenant would still be able to help Linden somehow.

[Zarathustra]

Why didn't he just say, "It's Roger!" Could have saved her a lot of trouble.

Do you ask this in seriousness? Because there is a mysterious "he" who can stop Covenant's communications through Anele if he dares say the wrong thing.

No, I wasn't serious. But I did forget that little detail.

[deer of the dawn]

When you add "Find me", to "Remember that I'm dead", but then factor in that the Dead are prevented from speaking to the living nor counsel them (as Linden finds out a little too late in Andelain), one wonders what it is that TC wanted Linden to do, since it was evidently not resurrecting him so he could speak to her.

However there are all sorts of problems to his resurrection. Is he still able to protect the Arch of Time, as an incarnate mortal? Is he still wild magic, and what relation is that going to have with Joan's and Linden's white gold? Aaagghh! I'm sure Linden gave these things some thought before she acted, seeing as she doesn't take a dump without analyzing it.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

There's only one problem with the theory that Kastenessen is the "he" that keeps Covenant from speaking. And that is, he's insane. It doesn't seem like he can put two and two together.

Did he not make a pact with Roger?

Is Kastenessen actually after anything? I don't think so, at least I haven't seen anything to indicate he is. He's got power, and Foul is using him. Foul had to give that power to Roger, via a hand, in order to that power to be weilded by someone who can think.

As I recall, it was Kastenessen who "gave Roger a hand" in exchange for something else...

I can't see Kastenessen comprehending, never mind caring, what Covenant says.

And he could easily have been sent in by Lord Foul, or Roger, or anyone, in order to breath that fiery breath on Linden. He didn't have to even know why.

Meanwhile the Lord Foul theory seems to resonate. It's been a theme throughout the Chronicles that Foul's plans and Foul's defeat share the same road for a long, long way. (Remember Chatty Foul from Runes?) So I like the idea that Covenant can only help Linden when he is also helping Foul. Since the path is the same, it makes sense that Covenant would still be able to help Linden somehow.

I understood from Runes that Kastenessen (along with some binding Law) prevented TC from continuing his conversation with Linden in that scene. Kastenessen is certainly capable of making decisions, insane people are capable of it too, all it says is that they are not capable of making sane decisions. And what does an insane Elohim do? How does an insane Elohim act?

In a context in which Kastenessen was mentioned by Anele, Linden came up with this:

someone who wanted her to fail- someone other than the Despiser.

That doesn't mean it was Kasty, of course. But I have a hard time coming up with a foe who seems to be so conversant with the ways of fire other than him.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

It is obvious however that Kasty does want things: he wants to break free of his Durance because it is a living Hell. And obviously he has. Skurj now roam the Earth either freely or at his or Roger's bidding. I'm not sure but I think Kasty gave Roger the hand after helping him break free of the Durance.

[deer of the dawn]

And what does an insane Elohim do? How does an insane Elohim act?

They put photos of their own rears as their avatar.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

And what does an insane Elohim do? How does an insane Elohim act?

They put photos of their own rears as their avatar.

As in Cameraman Jenn? I don't think that's her in the avatar, although the dog might be Moose?

[wayfriend]

And what does an insane Elohim do? How does an insane Elohim act?

They put photos of their own rears as their avatar.

Did he not make a pact with Roger?

We really have no concrete statement as to why Kastenessen gave Roger some of his power. All we know is that he's listenening to Foul.

We know Foul is a planner. Kastenessen, on the other hand, is merely a howling basketcase of pain and rage -- as far as the text has revealed. It's unlikely he's a schemer and a planner.

It's more likely, in my opinion, that Kastenessen was following Foul's suggestion when he gave some of his power to Roger. I don't see why he would do that of his own accord. He has the skurj working for him already. Why would he need Roger? What is Roger in turn doing for him?

We know Foul is working with Roger. It just makes more sense to me that Foul "whispered" to Kastenessen, convinced him to "lend Roger a hand".

I understood from Runes that Kastenessen (along with some binding Law) prevented TC from continuing his conversation with Linden in that scene.

True.

But it's not necessarilly true that the being who performed the act was the same being who recognized that it needed to be done.

Foul (or someone) could have detected Covenant revealing sensitive information, and called in Kastenessen to break up the party.

How could Kastenessen have any idea which things Covenant could say and could not say? It may be possible, but it doesn't seem to fit.

Letting people know half the story, but not the whole story, is Foul's game.

[Zarathustra]

From the GI:

I swore off "Creator" questions. But let me try again to be clear about one point. The "Covenant" books deal with two fictional realities, Covenant's "real" world and the Land. It's important not to blur the distinction between these two (just as it's important not to blur the distinction between fictional realities and other, more tangible realities). Because they are separate realities, there is no reason to assume that the same being is the "Creator" of both. Indeed, there is no reason to assume that the "Creator" of one cannot be just another character in the other. Therefore there is no reason to assume that the integrity of either reality is being violated if the "Creator" of the Land appears as a character in Covenant's "real" world.

Having rid ourselves of those assumptions, we can then consider the possibility that the Land's "Creator" is Covenant himself (an act of imagination which he later shares with Linden); that--in a manner of speaking--both the "Creator" and the man in the ochre robe are Covenant's dopplegangers, externalized versions of aspects of himself. My views on such subjects are better explained in my essay, "Epic Fantasy and the Modern World" (available on this site). But you might find that they repay consideration.

I'm not sure why I'm putting this here, in this thread. So I'm just feeling my way through an intuitive hunch.

One thing that struck me about this post is that the integrity of either world isn't violated if the "Creator" of the Land appears in Covenant's world as a character. But then he goes on to explain how the "Creator" is an aspect of Covenant himself.

So forget about Foul in the bonfire. The old man (Creator) has already been violating the boundary between realities from the very beginning. In other words, BOTH the Land and TC's "real" world are places where characters can meet aspects of themselves in an external form.

I think that the Creator not being able to enter his own creation, breaking the Arch of Time, is a red herring. The "Creator" has already been inside the Land numerous times, in the form of TC, since TC is himself the Creator. This is only a figurative way to say that Covenant must fight this battle himself, rather than having someone else fight his internal battle for him.

And the reason the old man didn't appear is because TC is dead. It's kind of hard for your own doppleganger to appear when you don't exist anymore (except as a memory).

So, I suppose this is just another roundabout way of saying that the Covenant we meet in FR is not real. He is Linden's "resurrected" memory of that man. The Land is an act of imagination TC shared with Linden, and now that's where the Land exists: in her head. So "TC as Foul" must be understood in the same terms--and for the same reasons--as "TC as Creator." And the absence of the old man in the ochre robe means that we must take TC's death seriously, both in terms of himself and his dopplegangers.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

A lot of this is RAFO material, and speculation. But from what I read, LF is not controlling anything, his role is that of a spectator waiting to see how events play out, confident that events will play out in the way he intended.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Malik,

Your post suggests to me that the "real" world in the Chronicles is also a fantasy realm. Or is it a place where fantasy converges on "reality"? LF has a very limited ability to influence events in the "real" world, perhaps because of the breaking of Law. These Laws keep the fantasy and "reality" dimensions separated in the same way that dreams are. Metaphor becomes real in a limited sense, it is able to interact with "real" world characters just long enough to set them on the path and to give them small tests and then disappear. To downplay it all as a hallucination, therefore as psycho-pathological, would not do justice to the intellectual thrust of the metaphor.

I'm reading the essay you cited. As an untitled essay located on the SRD site it was rather difficult to find. What it tells me so far is that SRD had to redefine "fantasy" in order for it to be taken as more than escapist fiction but rather as a literary accomplishment.

[wayfriend]

One thing that struck me about this post is that the integrity of either world isn't violated if the "Creator" of the Land appears in Covenant's world as a character. But then he goes on to explain how the "Creator" is an aspect of Covenant himself.

Yes. But, again, I have to ask, at what "level" is the Creator an aspect of Covenant? Literary? or "in story"?

(Covenant never stops to ponder if he is one with the Creator, as he does with Lord Foul. So it's a good question I think. If Covenant and the Creator are the same "in story", nothing in the first ten books has hinted at this.)

As far as violation goes, remember also that the Land is both "more real" and therefore "bigger" than the so-called real world. People from the Land could not come to Covenant's world, but people from Covenant's world can go to the Land.

So there may be no violation if the Creator is "more real" and "larger" than Covenant himself. Covenant is a mere bit of the Creator, and one which is devoid of all the Creator's "will". So there would be no "violation" in sending TC.

Another thing that's been discussed is whether the old man is the Creator or merely an avatar of the Creator. Argument suggests that he can't be "the" Creator entirely.

[deer of the dawn]

I swore off "Creator" questions. But let me try again to be clear about one point. The "Covenant" books deal with two fictional realities, Covenant's "real" world and the Land. It's important not to blur the distinction between these two (just as it's important not to blur the distinction between fictional realities and other, more tangible realities). Because they are separate realities, there is no reason to assume that the same being is the "Creator" of both. Indeed, there is no reason to assume that the "Creator" of one cannot be just another character in the other. Therefore there is no reason to assume that the integrity of either reality is being violated if the "Creator" of the Land appears as a character in Covenant's "real" world.

Having rid ourselves of those assumptions, we can then consider the possibility that the Land's "Creator" is Covenant himself (an act of imagination which he later shares with Linden); that--in a manner of speaking--both the "Creator" and the man in the ochre robe are Covenant's dopplegangers, externalized versions of aspects of himself. My views on such subjects are better explained in my essay, "Epic Fantasy and the Modern World" (available on this site). But you might find that they repay consideration.

I find this quote a roller-coaster ride for me. I read the first paragraph and I was like Ah HA!! GI grounds for my theory that the Creator of the Land is just a guy in the "real world".

But I find the second paragraph frustrating because I'm really not impressed by his "Fantasy consists of aspects of a character externalized" thing. It makes the whole thing very claustrophobic (narcissistic?) on the one hand, and on the other gives him complete license to make TC or Linden the Creator, Foul, or anybody else.

[Vraith]

I'll try not to ramble too much. Just some thoughts on various issues in this thread. [which may connect together at the end, or not...just jamming here]
The issue of answering death/entropy. The simple answer is birth/creation...of course that's just TOO simple, but I bring it up here because it relates to TC "remember, I'm dead." Part of the reason for this warning is that, being dead, giving birth/creating are simply beyond him. Does resurrection fix this? I doubt it, unless he can be resurrected in the 'real' world, too: then things would get really nasty...[even if the arch survived such an act] imagine the things LF could do with that law broken.
Also, death/entropy aren't questions, they're processes. You don't 'solve' processes, or answer them: you accept them, then act accordingly. [you can't be re-born, or re-created, but you can give birth, create: you don't survive, but something new comes, and something of you is in it]
That's probably not an entirely new idea, but it is something I predict the story will deal with. Something that IS new, maybe worth discussing (up to y'all obviously) is a parallel in LF/TC that might be part of the resolution of their relationship: Both have been violated by incurable conditions...TC's leprosy, obviously, LF by having his immortal nature trapped in a mortal frame...mortality eats away at him, but doesn't KILL (leprosy is the same...the disease itself, I don't think, is necessarily deadly). And they both react the same way: despite. But despising your condition is a dead end. TC has begun to learn this, but not completely. If he had, he wouldn't have simply accepted Foul's blasts and joined the arch, he would have joined Foul himself. TC still sees himself as opposing, even if he has admitted despite is in him. Being a Healer, of course, Linden will have a role to play in stitching up the gap. Enough on that, for now.

I have an idea about Kast/Roger. Kast is full of hate for the Elo (meaning also he has to hate himself and earthpower as well), so he'd be on LF's side, for his own reasons. [maybe he's even crazy enough to think he can manipulate or control LF...I think he's beyond caring about that, though]
Kast. wants revenge on the Elo--but since they're his equal, and more numerous, they may be able to destroy/rebind him if he attacks them directly and personally. So he attacks the earth itself, and also aids Roger (who is also part of the "dark place" the Elo always worried about...mortal, outsider, powerful).