Elohim vs. Staff of Law/2nd Chronicles

[deer of the dawn]

Are TC and LA from outside the Arch? I say no. The Land AND "our" world, BOTH inhabit different parts of the same Earth. Various characters have stated words to the effect, that if the Arch was broken, it would end everything on the entire Earth, not just the Land. Also, how many times have we heard about the neccesity of freedom? If TC or LA were from outside the Arch, then their very presence in the Land would shatter the Arch, just the same as if The Creator reached out his hand. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it...

I say yes, they ARE, because they met the Creator, who cannot get inside the Arch without destroying it. Since he was in their world, it has to be outside the Arch.

[rdhopeca]

Are TC and LA from outside the Arch? I say no. The Land AND "our" world, BOTH inhabit different parts of the same Earth. Various characters have stated words to the effect, that if the Arch was broken, it would end everything on the entire Earth, not just the Land. Also, how many times have we heard about the neccesity of freedom? If TC or LA were from outside the Arch, then their very presence in the Land would shatter the Arch, just the same as if The Creator reached out his hand. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it...

I say yes, they ARE, because they met the Creator, who cannot get inside the Arch without destroying it. Since he was in their world, it has to be outside the Arch.

This raises an interesting thought. Since those inside the Arch can summon those from outside without breaking it, perhaps someone should summon the Creator?

[AjK]

This raises an interesting thought. Since those inside the Arch can summon those from outside without breaking it, perhaps someone should summon the Creator?

Apologies if I am forgetting a clarifying quote from somewhere in the Chronicles but to me there is some ambiguity regarding the arch. For those of you who are getting to know me you probably have noticed that I am prone to ignore some potential facts in favor of believing something that I would find more interesting.

First, for clarification to my comments I do believe that the Land is real not a dream, though that distinction eventually becomes unimportant to TC. I also felt like TC's world and the Land each had their own arch and that the Creator of TC's world and the Creator of the Land are not the same being. I feel that this explains how the Land's Creator can exist in TC's world. It also helped me buy into the fact that time moved at a different pace in the Land than TC's world.

As for how TC & LA (and IMO Hile Troy) could have come into the Land without breaking the arch, I am of the opinion is that it is only the Creator who is bound by that constraint since he/she made it.

That is my (half-baked, mostly unsubstantiated) story and I am (mostly likely) going to stick with it.

[Mysteweave]

As for how TC & LA (and IMO Hile Troy) could have come into the Land without breaking the arch, I am of the opinion is that it is only the Creator who is bound by that constraint since he/she made it.

That is my (half-baked, mostly unsubstantiated) story and I am (mostly likely) going to stick with it.

I agree with that. IMO, the Creator isn't part of the Real World. TC, LInden and HT aren't bound by the same rules as he (the creator is). He created the Land. He obviously has some sort of power and I think he used that power to appear before TC and Linden, in a world that was not his own.

Am I making any sense??

[AjK]

I agree with that.

I am assuming you are agreeing with my thoughts being half-baked and mostly unsubstatiated.

He obviously has some sort of power and I think he used that power to appear before TC and Linden, in a world that was not his own.

Yes! Very good. I like that a lot. Thanks!

[Mysteweave]

I agree with that.

I am assuming you are agreeing with my thoughts being half-baked and mostly unsubstatiated.

Haha! No. I was agreeing with the rest of it.

[wayfriend]

I think you're right on the money, as well - as TC and Linden and Hile aren't the Creator, they can go. The restrictions of the Creator's actions are implicitely tied to his being the Creator.

And I have always considered the old man in the ochre robe the Creator's representative, or the Creator's avatar, and not the Creator himself. After all, people in the real world can't create an Arch of Time. So the Creator can't be a person the real world.

[Mysteweave]

And I have always considered the old man in the ochre robe the Creator's representative, or the Creator's avatar, and not the Creator himself. After all, people in the real world can't create an Arch of Time. So the Creator can't be a person the real world.

Thanks! That's exactly what I was trying to say - only you said it in a way that made sense.

And to substantiate that fact, we have the "Creator" getting up and walking away, shortly after having a heart attack during which he is pretty much clinically dead.

That's not really something you see us "mortals" doing every day.

[spoonchicken]

Helluva conversation I started ! I'm gonna have to see if I can come up with other equally thought/conversation provoking stuff...

[AjK]

The restrictions of the Creator's actions are implicitely tied to his being the Creator.

Exactly. Spot on.

And I have always considered the old man in the ochre robe the Creator's representative, or the Creator's avatar, and not the Creator himself

Very well put. I would have said the old man was a "manifestation" or "instance" of the creator.

[AjK]

I'm gonna have to see if I can come up with other thought equally thought/conversation provoking

Please do! I learn something every day from all you nice folks.

[deer of the dawn]

As for how TC & LA (and IMO Hile Troy) could have come into the Land without breaking the arch, I am of the opinion is that it is only the Creator who is bound by that constraint since he/she made it.

That is my (half-baked, mostly unsubstantiated) story and I am (mostly likely) going to stick with it.

I agree with that. IMO, the Creator isn't part of the Real World. TC, LInden and HT aren't bound by the same rules as he (the creator is). He created the Land. He obviously has some sort of power and I think he used that power to appear before TC and Linden, in a world that was not his own.

Am I making any sense??

Yes, but it's a pet theory of mine that the Creator is truly an old man (definitely not a 'she') in an ochre robe and is part of the "Real World".

This raises an interesting thought. Since those inside the Arch can summon those from outside without breaking it, perhaps someone should summon the Creator?

Good point! However, that would most likely make for a very short Chronicle.

[spoonchicken]

Well, it's been a full month since I posted this thread question to SRD himself as part of the GI. No answer yet, so I suppose SRD doesn't consider the question to be worth his time. Or, the answer would constittute a Last Chron spoiler. Oh well.......

[Vraith]

Nah, spoon, it often takes that long, depending on his business and on volume. If you included your email, you'll at least get a private response.

[rdhopeca]

It took him a month to answer mine, but answer he did...

[spoonchicken]

Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not "whining" about it. I honestly didn't expect an answer anyway. And besides, hopefully SRD is simply too busy working on AATE to take the time to respond to GI questions these days. PLease beleive me when I say, that I would prefer SRD remain focused on the real work, and ignore the GI if neccessary. No problem! Oct 2010 is still a long time off......

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I think you're right on the money, as well - as TC and Linden and Hile aren't the Creator, they can go. The restrictions of the Creator's actions are implicitely tied to his being the Creator.

And I have always considered the old man in the ochre robe the Creator's representative, or the Creator's avatar, and not the Creator himself. After all, people in the real world can't create an Arch of Time. So the Creator can't be a person the real world.

According to the GI, the man in the ochre robe is an aspect of TC himself. I suppose he is also an aspect and manifestation of LA.

Of course, such manifestations don't occur in the real world, only in the "real" world of the Chrons.

[Fist and Faith]

"In sorrow and humility, the Creator saw what he had done. So that the plight of the Earth would not be utterly without hope, he sought to help his creation in indirect ways. He guided the Lord-Fatherer to the fashioning of the Staff of Law - a weapon against Despite. But the very Law of the Earth's creation permits nothing more. If the Creator were to silence Lord Foul, that act would destroy Time - and then the Despiser would be free in infinity again. Free to make whatever befoulments he desired."

"You have retrieved my Earth from the brink of dissolution. I could give you precious gifts a dozen times over, and still not call the matter paid."

A gift? Covenant sighed to himself. No. He could not demean himself or the Creator by asking for a cure to leprosy. He was about to refuse the offer when a sudden excitement flashed across him. "Save the Giant," he said. "Save Foamfollower."

In a tone of ineffable rue, the voice answered, "No, Thomas Covenant - I cannot. Have I not told you that I would break the arch of Time if I were to put my hand through it to touch the Earth? No matter how great my gratitude, I can do nothing for you in the Land or upon that Earth. If I could, I would never have permitted my enemy to do so much harm."

[Zortag]

Is it anywhere stated that an Elohim is actually required to make the second Staff of Law? Did the Elohim elect an Appointed so that any new Staff would not be restricted to the Law as the ur-viles wished? The Dead gave Covenant a gift, but all things have risks. Perhaps the reason Covenant had to leave the Land to get the actual thing he needed, was to get an Elohim to make a balanced Staff. The Dead had to risk that Linden would not get the ring until an Elohim had joined the Quest. By having the possibility of an ur-vile only Staff, it forced the Elohim to do something about it, for that would be a threat to them. If Findal got the ring, he would not use it to make use of Vain, and create the ur-vile only Staff; but would probably take it back to Elemesnedene, and it would be "lost" forever, or at least until Chant got a hold of it.

[wayfriend]

I'll take a shot at these...

Is it anywhere stated that an Elohim is actually required to make the second Staff of Law?

The ur-viles and the Dead provided a way to make a new Staff of Law, and that way certainly required an Elohim. Perhaps there was another way to create a Staff, but we can never know. We do know that Berek's way was denied to them.

Did the Elohim elect an Appointed so that any new Staff would not be restricted to the Law as the ur-viles wished?

Sometimes I despair that we'll ever know the real motivations of the Elohim. But as far as we can tell, the job of the Appointed was to work some means of preventing the Staff from ever being created. But we also know that the Appointed would rather the Staff be created than created poorly. Specifically, they didn't want Vain in anything less than ideal shape, and it was Vain who represented the structure, or Law, part of the Staff. So my guess is that the Elohim had no desire to create a Lawless or less Lawful Staff.

The Dead gave Covenant a gift, but all things have risks. Perhaps the reason Covenant had to leave the Land to get the actual thing he needed, was to get an Elohim to make a balanced Staff.

Yes. This is stated - well, characters come to the same conclusion - in the text.

By having the possibility of an ur-vile only Staff, it forced the Elohim to do something about it, for that would be a threat to them.

I don't think the Staff was possible without an Elohim. Also, I think the threat to them, or at least something that worried them, was a fully Lawful staff. The Elohim seem to consider Law something that encroaches on their freedom. This is why they'd rather see the Staff not created at all.

If Findal got the ring, he would not use it to make use of Vain, and create the ur-vile only Staff; but would probably take it back to Elemesnedene, and it would be "lost" forever, or at least until Chant got a hold of it.

Again, Elohim motivations. But Findail suggested that if he received the ring freely, the Elohim would use it to save the Earth - as they see fit, of course.