What's A Vain?

Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:29 am

Not really.

But.

Vain seems to be able to handle an Elohim, but he was made by Demondim (who are spirits) that are never really seen (much like the Viles) in either trilogy.

Does it seem odd to you that the Demondim all the sudden show up in the second chrons and care what happens, and that they're lore was as great as the Elohim?

Post by **variol son** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:48 am

Vain was made by the ur-viles, who were themselves made by the Demondim. I think he's referred to as Demondim-spawn like they are coz ur-vile spawn sounds a little strange.

Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:46 pm

Either way, I would think it was ridiculous to put a Demondim-spawn on the same power level as an Elohim?

Post by **wayfriend** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:51 pm

The Elohim are powerful, but you can learn their secrets and control them if you have the lore. Which the ur-viles apparently had.

Vain isn't the only example of someone who can overpower an Elohim. The One Forest also succeeded at it.

Post by **[Syl]** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:11 pm

Vain also represented millenia of effort on the part of the ur-viles. I think it would be very discouraging if they couldn't succeed.

Post by **Brother Charn** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:55 pm

The Elohim are very powerful, but apparently they are like magpies in some respects - if the structure you build is magnetic enough, they cannot help but be drawn to it - they are expressions of Earthpower which gives them might unmatched, but at the same time their nature provides operating parameters that they cannot exceed.

Spoiler

Jeremiah's facility with structures apparently makes him some sort of meta-magician, which means he is likely capable of mazing the Elohim.

The ur-viles designed Vain to act similarly - his primary purpose was to serve as an unavoidable trap for an Elohim. While Findail did not wish to fulfill his Appointing, and he could have disavowed it, he chose not to, either out of a sense of duty or because he feared retribution by the other Elohim. This choice brought him close enough to Vain at the last that he could no longer make an escape when he wanted to - which he clearly did, since he knew it would effectively be his Doom (even for the good purpose it was, it was a Doom for him).

Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:16 pm

Vain's been planned for millenium? Why? Berek's staff came from the Earthpower, then it was refound by Drool? Why would the ur-viles be working towards a new one all this time? Hadn't the RoD happened only a couple hundred years before the 1st Chrons?

Post by **Brother Charn** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:31 pm

You forget about the large swath of time between 1st and 2nd Chrons. 1,500 years or so, right? That's the time the ur-viles took to have a change of heart and decide to make Vain.

Post by **Ur Dead** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:41 pm

Brother Charn wrote:You forget about the large swath of time between 1st and 2nd Chrons. 1,500 years or so, right? That's the time the ur-viles took to have a change of heart and decide to make Vain.

Between the 1st and 2nd Chronicles - 3500 years past.
Same between the 2nd and 3rd Chronicles - 3500 years.

ROD to the 1st Chronicles is around 1000 years.
Time between Berek's call of the Firelions and the ROD is 3000 years.

Spoiler

In FR TC/Jermiah transport Linden 10000 years back to the time of Berek.

Post by **Brother Charn** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 4:12 pm

Yeah.... what he said.

Tue Feb 10, 2009 4:34 pm

Good insights all.

Still, doesn't quite equal out to me.

Post by **Vraith** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:15 pm

Perhaps if you look at it this way: there is no indication Vain is as powerful in a head-on, stand up, fair fight. But imagine if every single scrap of medical knowledge we have, and every bit of research we could do, was focused on one single disease over the course of many centuries.
[not a perfect analogy, but roughly parallel]

Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:48 pm

I like the analogy, but Vain probably fought alot more than just one Elohim when he escaped...though he was hurt, it still seems umm, a stretch to say the least...

Post by **matrixman** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:14 pm

I see what you're saying. When I first read that scene in The One Tree, I was also puzzled by how Vain seemed to escape from the Elohim with relative ease.

But it shouldn't be forgotten that the company of the Quest - specifically the Haruchai - was there to rescue him. If the Haruchai had not jumped in to help Vain, then he may well have been lost. Vain was able to fight off dissolution in the waters of the river for a time, but it was also clearly a losing fight.

It may also have been the case that Vain got away because the Elohim simply didn't exert their full power to re-capture or eliminate Vain, for fear that it would cause harm (or more harm than was necessary) to the Quest. But I like the other answer better. Still not completely satisfactory, I suppose, but then, Donaldson never did go into detail about the "how" of it. All the Elohim's doings were behind-the-scenes, and all we saw was Vain flopping in the water.

Post by **wayfriend** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:42 pm

I think the ur-viles knew that the Elohim were susceptible to certain forms of structure.

Post by **High Lord Tolkien** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:42 pm

Members of the the Clave could have destroyed Vain.
Sunbane warped ur-Viles could have unmade him.
I'm sure a Sandgorgon could have busted him all up.
Vain wasn't all that powerful.
The Demondim/ur-Vile lore within him wasn't as powerful as the Elohim.
They could have destroyed him.
But the Elohim were bound by their Wuird (spelling?) not to destroy Vain.
That was the whole point of Findail's appointment.

Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:52 pm

High Lord Tolkien wrote: But the Elohim were bound by their Wurd not to destroy Vain.
That was the whole point of Findail's appointment.

How so? I kind of got the feeling that they were bound by their Wurd not to act against they're inherent nature, whatever that is...but nothing concerning Vain himself?

Post by **High Lord Tolkien** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:24 pm

jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:
High Lord Tolkien wrote: But the Elohim were bound by their Wurd not to destroy Vain.
That was the whole point of Findail's appointment.
How so? I kind of got the feeling that they were bound by their Wurd not to act against they're inherent nature, whatever that is...but nothing concerning Vain himself?

The Elohim knew Vain's purpose.
Findail was supposed to gain the ring and if that failed he was doomed to become merged with Vain.

Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:18 am

High Lord Tolkien wrote:
jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:
High Lord Tolkien wrote: But the Elohim were bound by their Wurd not to destroy Vain.
That was the whole point of Findail's appointment.
How so? I kind of got the feeling that they were bound by their Wurd not to act against they're inherent nature, whatever that is...but nothing concerning Vain himself?

The Elohim knew Vain's purpose.
Findail was supposed to gain the ring and if that failed he was doomed to become merged with Vain.

At the beginning they didn't even know who the ringwielder was until they saw for themselves.

Post by **iQuestor** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:34 am

jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:
High Lord Tolkien wrote: But the Elohim were bound by their Wurd not to destroy Vain.
That was the whole point of Findail's appointment.
How so? I kind of got the feeling that they were bound by their Wurd not to act against they're inherent nature, whatever that is...but nothing concerning Vain himself?

You're so Vain; I bet you think this thread is about you. Don't you? Don't you?

sorry. couldn't help it. I just couldnt.

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

What's A Vain?

What's A Vain?