LOTR Was Said to be Unfilmable...

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

LOTR was said to be unfilmable, and while the movies aren't quite the same as the book, they do stay pretty faithful.

Covenant could be looked at in the same way:
1- Cov's a wretch all through the whole first trilogy and really doesn't
grow. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate that the qualities built up in him
in his struggles as a leper are exactly what gives him the ability to
defeat Foul, but in a film, one needs to want to identify with the protagonist, even
see redeaming qualities in an antagonist, a journey of redemption, etc.
He doesn't go through this much, even though he supposedly comes to
love the Land and those in it, which I don't really see him going thru
though SRD "tells" us this through Cov's thoughts.

2- Many of the emotional plot points in the second and third stories rely
on the audience caring deeply about the characters, they're races,
histories and cultures. SRD accomplishes this mostly through historical
exposition by our main characters, which works in a book, but not in
film-usually. And don't forget we have twelve different main histories
to tell: Cov's, Berek's, Damelon's, Loric's, Kevin's, Giants, Bloodguard's
Lord's, Creator/Foul's, Ranyhyn/Ramen's, Raver's, Forestal's,
Cavewights, etc. And unlike LOTR, much of the histories is absolutely
vital to the stories.

3- LFB is a four hour film, with only a select few scenes being cutable.
IW has massive issues with multiple story arcs being filmable (Korik's
Mission), and the first act is pretty boring from an action standpoint.
PTP is full of characters that really seem to just be there to create tension points for Cov, are not people, except of course Mhoram, and there's really no plot, nothing intersting beyond the Siege and what Cov is going through, which might be enough, but I'm not sure.

4- And finally, IW and PTP, from a plot perspective are simply MASSIVE
RIPS off LOTR, and while the fantasy genre as a whole is, when filming
you need to think about how the 95% of the audience who don't read
fantasy will view this. Marketing is about niches, and the question is
what niche will Cov fill between LOTR, Narnia and Potter, especially if
so much of it is a blatant copy of LOTR. Many will argue against this,
but film is a visual medium, and there's really little plot to the Chrons.

Thoughts?

[Vraith]

The people who say this are simply wrong. I could film it, (which is my way of saying LOTS of people could, if I could) with the right cinematographer.
It couldn't be done in normal 2-1/2 hour segments though...I think I could do it in 3-1/2 hour ones.
It could be a great film...but I don't think a popular one...it's not un-filmable, it's un-profitable.

The back-story stuff would have to be altered to interactions/dialogue (which some would trash it for)

But: you don't see TC changing/growing?
You don't see plot?

And this:

4- And finally, IW and PTP, from a plot perspective are simply MASSIVE
RIPS off LOTR, and while the fantasy genre as a whole is, when filming
you need to think about how the 95% of the audience who don't read
fantasy will view this. Marketing is about niches, and the question is
what niche will Cov fill between LOTR, Narnia and Potter, especially if
so much of it is a blatant copy of LOTR. Many will argue against this,
but film is a visual medium, and there's really little plot to the Chrons.

except for the part about niches is utterly untrue.

[wayfriend]

2- Many of the emotional plot points in the second and third stories rely
on the audience caring deeply about the characters, they're races,
histories and cultures. SRD accomplishes this mostly through historical
exposition by our main characters, which works in a book, but not in
film-usually. And don't forget we have twelve different main histories
to tell: Cov's, Berek's, Damelon's, Loric's, Kevin's, Giants, Bloodguard's
Lord's, Creator/Foul's, Ranyhyn/Ramen's, Raver's, Forestal's,
Cavewights, etc. And unlike LOTR, much of the histories is absolutely
vital to the stories.

Ah, but in a movie, you can get the audience to "fall in live" with a character or a race in mere moments.

4- And finally, IW and PTP, from a plot perspective are simply MASSIVE
RIPS off LOTR, and while the fantasy genre as a whole is, when filming
you need to think about how the 95% of the audience who don't read
fantasy will view this. Marketing is about niches, and the question is
what niche will Cov fill between LOTR, Narnia and Potter, especially if
so much of it is a blatant copy of LOTR. Many will argue against this,
but film is a visual medium, and there's really little plot to the Chrons.

So called "rip offs" of LOTR are so sketchy that on fim they would not carry. Who's going to think Giant's are like the Ents? Stonedowners, dwarves?

There's really only the ring to deal with. And that can be both a blessing and a curse.

Thoughts?[/quote]

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

One Ring = Cov's Ring
Siege of Minis Tirith = Siege of Revelstone
Helm's Deep = Doom's Retreat
Horses as Culture = Ranyhyn
Wizards = Lords
Ents = Forestals or Giants
Dwarves = Stonedowners or Giants
Orcs = Urviles
Nazgul = Ravers
Barrow Wights = Cavewights
Fangorn Forest = Garroting Deep Forest
Mirkwood Forest = Morrinmoss Forest
Mount Doom = Mount Thunder
Lurker at Door of Moria = Sarangrave Lurker
Amon Hen = Kevin's Watch
Mordor = Shattered Hills + East
Rivendell = Revelwood
Two Towers Story Split = Illearth War Story Split
Anduril = Krill
Rhirrim Charge-Minis Tirith Battle = Waynhim Charge (PTP)
Mouth of Sauraon = Mouth in Sarangrave (IW)
Watchers at Minis Morgul = Watcher at Ridjeck Thome
Maiar = Demondim
Death at Moria = Death at Coercri
Mountains of Morder = same effect as Landsdrop
Burning of Trees = Burning of Trees

I could go on, but I won't...

[Vraith]

I could do a list like that between the King James Bible and Gravity's Rainbow...so what? You can't just say "See...both have bad forests"

Santa and Satan have the same letters. They both are usually black and red. Have you ever seen them together?

It is what they do, what they mean, now they function. The 'One Ring' and TC's have only one thing in common: they're rings.

Almost every blues song uses the same scale base...that's part of what makes it blues...but does that mean there's only one blues tune, the rest are rip-offs?

The format/tradition simply doesn't make the story. If I wanted to go to the trouble, I could use your exact list to demonstrate precisely how different the stories are.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

Yes. But to a film audience where 95% have never read the books, and 90% have seen LOTR and Narnia, I think it would seem like such a copy at least with certain things and certain points, whereas Narnia and LOTR don't share too much in common. And while this is normal in the fantasy genre, it's not so normal in fantasy film, if you saw a film that seemed to derive much of itself from Star Wars, wouldn't it lower your opinion of it, even if it was a really good film?

[Cagliostro]

And while this is normal in the fantasy genre, it's not so normal in fantasy film, if you saw a film that seemed to derive much of itself from Star Wars, wouldn't it lower your opinion of it, even if it was a really good film?

For a bit, but I'd get over it. Much like I did Donaldson's books. I saw the connections with LOTR and eventually moved beyond them, but I thought it was a bit of a rip-off with some new elements. I'm still not totally convinced they weren't rip-offs, but he spun in them in such a new direction, it was interesting to me. And as the story progressed, it went way beyond a lot of that. But that's me, and not the general public. But I think a lot of people saw those connections and moved on from it with the books, and would probably be the same with the movie.

[Ur Dead]

Some unsimilair items.

Main character:
A Hobbit <=/> A Leper

Elves <=/> Haruchai

Trolls <=/> Linden Avery (debateable)
(Had to throw that in for the THOOLAH group)




But if a movie is made, then the ones playing Lords or ones who wield lore will have to have some singing talent.
Kevin's lore was sung or chanted at the least. LOTR the magic was per verbatium.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

Fill In The Blank:

Trolls are to Linden Avery like "little hairy women" are to ________?

[Rigel]

One Ring = Cov's Ring

If anyone did "MASSIVE RIPS off," it was Tolkien. After all, he used a magic ring simply because that's what had always been used in fantasy (see Der Ring des Nibelungen for a direct predecessor, but there are countless other stories of magic rings).

Donaldson at least had a reason for using Covenant's wedding ring; and it had to be his wedding ring. The Ring in the first Chrons is far more important as a symbol of his marriage than as a symbol of power.

Siege of Minis Tirith = Siege of Revelstone
Helm's Deep = Doom's Retreat

=Normandy is Saving Private Ryan = any other movie with a big battle.

Horses as Culture = Ranyhyn

=Symbols of power and virility which Covenant fears (remember his feelings towards Joan?) vs Tolkien liking horses.

Wizards = Lords

This one is laughable. Demigods = Frail humans who can't even get past Chapter 1?

Ents = Forestals or Giants

The forestals are the closest here, but only in that they also serve the Forest. Other than that, the character (and form!) are completely different.

Dwarves = Stonedowners or Giants
Orcs = Urviles
Nazgul = Ravers
Barrow Wights = Cavewights

Did you even read the books?

These are so laughably inaccurate that I won't even go into the rest of your list.

---

Personally, I don't understand people who say that LotR and TCTC are so similar. That's like saying that Saving Private Ryan is a ripoff of Sands of Iwo Jima (although in that case, at least they're both dealing with the same war!)

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

You don't get it. There are many, many war movies. There are only a few epic fantasy trilogies.

Most people don't know or care that Tolkien copied what was before him, they will only compare CTC to what they know from the LOTR films.

Take the Maiar for instance. Ask most people who've seen LOTR what a Maiar is and they'll tell you they don't know. Why? Because there weren't any in LOTR, just Wizards. And this will be the normal answer because Jackson didn't go there.

I believe you would have to work from this mind set when writing the script for a film version of CTC.

And the Forestal is really an active Tom Bombadil in the role of an Ent.

[Zarathustra]

Wait a minute, I think Jacob is on to something here . . .

Both books are:

fantasy = fantasy
book = book
written by a man = written by a man
has pages = has pages
things happen = things happen
characters = characters

Ok, I'll stop now. Just kidding, Jacob!

Seriously, I never once thought there was anything similar to LOTR when I read the Chronicles. Not once. The similarities you note are simply because these two series are in the same genre. If you took mysteries books, you'd have: crimes, suspicious characters, red herrings, surprising twists, murder weapons, etc. If you took romance novels, you'd have: guy + girl, attraction, romantic situations, (um, other stuff--ok, I've never read a romance novel ). S.F. has: space ships, space, planets, aliens, lasers, computers, space battles, etc. Just because a story in a genre uses tropes that are indicative of that genre doesn't mean these are "ripoffs." You could literally make such isomorphic comparisons between any and all fantasy series. They all have forests and mountains, for Pete's sake. They all have magic, and this usually means people who wield that magic (wizards, etc.). They all have bad guys, wars or battles, strange creatures, etc. You could also say the same about every fantasy movie ever made.

[Zarathustra]

When I'm asked to compare what I do to LOTR, I like to say that I'm playing in the same ballpark Tolkien did, but he's playing softball and I'm playing hardball. By which I do not mean IN ANY WAY to diminish or minimize LOTR. I'm simply pointing out a difference in the themes and intensity of my work.

(04/18/2004)

[Cagliostro]

Fill In The Blank:

Trolls are to Linden Avery like "little hairy women" are to ________?

My exes. Do I win?

Nah, I see a heap of similarities, especially ents to the giants, but yeah, like The Man said, they are two very different stories.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

My exes. Do I win?

Yep, here's yur prize:



grovel...

[mubble]

All very noble us SD fans wanting a movie but any interested studio wants to hit a wide audience. While we can maybe forgive/understand/empathise with Covenent for all his sins most non-fanatical, mainstream moviegoers will not accept a rapist, begrudging, bitter, cynical, non-believer like Cov as a main man. It just ain't gonna happen! There is no getting past his crime of raping a sixteen (?) year old kid and no leaving it out either due to its repercussions throughout the story.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

All very noble us SD fans wanting a movie but any interested studio wants to hit a wide audience. While we can maybe forgive/understand/empathise with Covenent for all his sins most non-fanatical, mainstream moviegoers will not accept a rapist, begrudging, bitter, cynical, non-believer like Cov as a main man. It just ain't gonna happen! There is no getting past his crime of raping a sixteen (?) year old kid and no leaving it out either due to its repercussions throughout the story.

I feel you...

[Rigel]

All very noble us SD fans wanting a movie but any interested studio wants to hit a wide audience. While we can maybe forgive/understand/empathise with Covenent for all his sins most non-fanatical, mainstream moviegoers will not accept a rapist, begrudging, bitter, cynical, non-believer like Cov as a main man. It just ain't gonna happen! There is no getting past his crime of raping a sixteen (?) year old kid and no leaving it out either due to its repercussions throughout the story.

Did you watch The Other Boleyn Girl? Do you realize that they actually showed a rape on-screen, and rather distastefully a that?

Given that I trust almost any director is capable of handling rape within a story better than they did for TOBG, I don't think it will be a problem.

[Ur Dead]

The rape of Lena can be done in a manner that suggests that the White Gold flares and the Wild Magic is Convenant's first experience with it. It overwhelms TC and he doesn't realize what he's doing until afterwards.
(If I remember correctly the Wild Magic is triggered by passion or strong emotions. TC saying are you trying to drive me crazy is an answer to something he feels strongly against - The Land itself)

It also could be a point on why Lena went crazy and believes Covenant is her beloved. Why she cared for her daughter and sent her to the Lorestat.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

The rape of Lena can be done in a manner that suggests that the White Gold flares and the Wild Magic is Convenant's first experience with it. It overwhelms TC and he doesn't realize what he's doing until afterwards.
(If I remember correctly the Wild Magic is triggered by passion or strong emotions. TC saying are you trying to drive me crazy is an answer to something he feels strongly against - The Land itself)

It also could be a point on why Lena went crazy and believes Covenant is her beloved. Why she cared for her daughter and sent her to the Lorestat.

Interesting...it would work philisophically...but would it help the audience at all? Or would they hate the film even more, because from that point on, anytime the white gold is mentioned, shown or enacted, they'd remember rape and bad emotions?...yes, Cov is always present at those discussions, but the white gold represents hope for the audience right?