Cagliostro wrote:
And Malik, you really want to pick a fight about midichloreans, don't you?
No no! Let's drop it right now. I mainly talking about the smoke monster, and the idea that a science fiction explanation doesn't make it any less fantastic.
Yeah, y'know, I wouldn't find it annoying if that is how they described ol' Smokie, to be honest. I'd buy it. But the context does seem more rooted in a sense of "reality" or at least more rooted in science than Star Wars. So, yeah...I'd accept that aesthetically.
Life is a waste of time
Time is a waste of life
So get wasted all of the time
And you'll have the time of your life
Yes. it was good to see Smokie back. An added dimension to the monster; possession or at least a brain washing ability, or as D&c hinted at a few time trips ago..Smokie can configure itself into any form it chooses,,or is instructed..remember the ghost of Yemi. But.no matter what,,.that still leaves the Will of The Island as Supreme. Much like the Island not letting Michael die,,it appears Robert bought his bullets from the same gun shop as Michael did.
This show is so freekin twisted. Here it is, kinda like the Lost St Valentine show,,just look at what they did with " Love"...life and death, sacrifice, all twisted thru and across Time. A great visual metaphor of Locke descending the rope as a Time Jump erupted from below...and Sawyer,,trying to do good and help,,is course corrected. No ,Sawyer, you are a Self Preservationist, and will always be.,,just as the Love of Jin for Sun,,requesting that Sun not comeback to the Island,,got twisted, corrected..by Sun's want for revenge,, or Ben's will to survive...or both. Magnificent Beauty of the Surreal.
Of course Locke leaves the island as he came to it; handicapped, unable to walk,, but Christian got him to do what was necessary all along,,find the will and ability within himself,,rather than seeking in the exterior world. A simple " No" is all it took. Yes, for that, the Old Locke dies,,and a New Locke is to be reborn...or should, i should say. I called that one back in season one. Lockes miracle healing,,was /is..a matter of perception. Illusion as reality. Spoiler
.rumor has it that Christian takes over the body of Locke....!!!!!..Smokie?
Des popping in, tells Ben that Penny can't be far off...I also wonder if Eloise being the mother of Faraday,, was also a bit of news for Ben. So..like the climax of South Park Uncut,,we are seeing all the elements coming together at the same time and place...Ben, Widmore, the O6, Lockes mission, Ben's revenge, Widmore's greed, etc etc..the "real "world insanity of it all is palpable .
Choice is still viable , but Widmore's action will probably reduce the choice made by Hurley, Sayid and Kate to..no other choice but to go with Ben...Can any one else see the magnificent beauty of the moment,,when Widmore has to make the choice...the Island or his daughter?..and Ben,,Revenge or the Island? Perhaps it will be Des,, who makes sure,,that neither, gets either. Des proves,,hes not a coward... You just know,, that there will be a Great Storm brewing on the Island at the same Time.
If she withdrew from exaltation, she would be forced to think- And every thought led to fear and contradictions; to dilemmas for which she was unprepared.
pg4 TLD
Malik23 wrote:Lurch, no doubt much of what you say is true. However, Lost seems to me a much larger mélange of ideas than just surrealism, from 17th century philosophy to 20th century physics.
I tend to agree with you Malik, and I think things like character names and the characteristics that accompany them offers a clue to this. I think it was discussed earlier that the character names had some significance in painting the backdrop to the role each chatacter plays out, the most obvious being Locke, Shephard, Sawyer and of course Hugo. Each has a source independant to the others and brings those ideas to the "melange".
I'm not sure that that contradicts Lurch's perspective however, as white swans and elephants are from different continents but can harmonize into a surrealist perspective (Dali) or fish and cigars on the more metamorphoic works of Magritte: the components are essentially elements in the super-realistic dream state.
I also wanted to go on with the name game theme in response to Lord Foul's comments on Hurley. I think the character traits are contained within the expanded reference of the names. Jack Shephard is indeed a Shepherd, Sawyer is a lost little boy getting into trouble on adventures, I heard that there are elements of "Myst" in the writing which could even be linked to 'Smokie'. But I think Hugo's impact (initially) as a "Hunchback of Notre Dame" figure and then as a chronicler or observer of the lives and pasts and redemptions within a post apocalyptic group and also taking on the social and rights campaigner aspects of Victor Hugo's life is very important; he's not the engine or the driver but he's the oil and grease that keeps it running smoothly.....(or maybe its Hugo because he's huge)?
I do however see a basis in reality, without light there is no dark. For the surreal to "be" there has to be plain old "real"........ at least Wittgenstein and Satre have posited such. The dream is taking place within the theatre of the real which exists to provide the point of reference: otherwise the dream is the sole plane of reality and any "super-reality" or "sub-super-reality" ceases to exist.
Surreal it may be, but the elements that make up the surreality each have their own integrity and may perform within their owns frames of reference, that too is elemental to the surreal.....as the surreal is elemental to 'our' reality, both as observers and participants. Equally I think there has to be a like balance within the overall drama: to allow the expression of the surreal within the drama there also has to be elements of the real to support it.
This is where I disagree with Lurch's all encompassing surreal solution.
"Winston, if you were my husband I'd give you poison" ................ "Madam, if you were my wife I would drink it!"
"Terrorism is war by the poor, and war is terrorism by the rich"
"A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well."
"The opposite of pro-life isn't pro-death. Y'know?"
"What if the Hokey Cokey really is what its all about?"
I don't know why Des thinks he's a coward. Seems to run right into danger every chance he gets. Also note during his time at the Abbey the head of the order fires him. You'll catch the picture on his desk containing Faraday's mother and the Monk. Probably means that Desmond was kicked out on that day precisely to meet Penny.
Kevin164 wrote:I don't know why Des thinks he's a coward. Seems to run right into danger every chance he gets. Also note during his time at the Abbey the head of the order fires him. You'll catch the picture on his desk containing Faraday's mother and the Monk. Probably means that Desmond was kicked out on that day precisely to meet Penny.
Des is also very determined. I don't think he's running from anything, and he actually goes to great lengths to get what he wants. His one act of "cowardice"--staying away from Penny--was because of his destiny to save the world/shut down the hatch. All in all, he's got quite a force of will.
Well Finn. I understand what you are saying. To keep the show viable to the mass audience ,," too much dream state,, or Surreal,," can be counter productive,,as in Dave Lynch'es Twin Peaks..Yet, ..well here is an example:
At end of last season ,,maybe at the summer's Comix Con,,D&C were asked what books should the Lost Fan being reading..They responded..keep reading the Bible....I had already stated possibly here and at the abc.com board,, that " LOVE" was to be explored...Okay, every one went HUH? with the read the Bible answer. The last episode,,"death" episode,, check out Jin's experience..by the near end of his travail..he sacrifices himself for his Love of Sun..tell her I am dead, She does not need to come to the Island.." and of course ,, his wishes get twisted to..Suns saving grace is Her Love for Jin,,which also, gives Ben another day to live and a likely return to the Island for Sun..The religious overtones in this episode are obvious.. Jin sacrifices himself for his Love of Sun.. sound religiously familiar? God so Loved Mankind that he sacrificed His only son...I am Not going on about God or Jesus here,, but I am going on about,,LOVE. The Mystery of the kind of Love ,,of a God that would sacrifice his only Son..so that Mankind would understand better, Love..is what is being explored here..Read the Bible Indeed! But wait, Theres More!
Smokie was also in the episode!!..OMG, how is lurch going to tie Smokie in with Love? Hang on folks...I will give the option of Malik's Nanobots a whirl too...I've been saying Smokie is The Conscience for a long time..So lets check Smokie out over Time..So far,the " fartherest back" in time we saw him was Ben as boy running away from the Dharma Town.. a fence was already up..keeping the Hostiles out,,and Smokie? Interesting it is that Richard pops out of jungle rite after Smokie starts scaring Ben,,,oh poop! The Hostiles are Smokie?,, Ben is possessed by Smokie????..Everything that isn't a Lostie,, is ....SMOKIE????...No..but the possibilities are enticiing. Ben and Smokie are connected...okay Malik check this out..lets go with the nanobot idea..Intelligent robots.. Currently mankind really isn't there yet..So..Intelligent nanobots are from the Future...I've been saying Season 5 is about creating a Future...hold on..I've been saying Smokie is The Conscience...So.. a question,, Intelligence is more than a bunch of on/off switches,, more than a polarized black/ white, Yes/ No binary existence,,so, what kind of Conscience would a nanobot have,, what kind of parameters,, guidance,,would a Intelligent Nanobot System have..what would constitute its Conscience?.....okay, we had Jacob..and now we have Christian..Christian as Smokie anybody?...hold on , not there yet...a learning curve for Smokie?
Love, being explored in Lost..on a Biblical Level..on the Level of God's Love,, all the Mystery of that Love..exploring that Mystery of a Love that would sacrifice His Only Son..trying to understand or experience it..does that not change our own Conscience,, does that not reshape,, change what Constitutes our Conscience,,and therefore,,influences how we create our Future.?...Nanobots? or Mankind....does it matter?..some day in the future,,we may be the same.
BTW..the above...lets just say that the idea of LOVE.. the act of exploring it, defining it,, or reshaping it , as Mankind moved forward over Time,,as the Hope, that is in every Future..ummm yea..read up Andre Breton's Arcanum 17 if you want to know where LOST is now and get a strong hint as to where its going..
Which brings me to...how will Smokie be " changed" when the O6,, return and eventually meet up with the Island Losties..??
If she withdrew from exaltation, she would be forced to think- And every thought led to fear and contradictions; to dilemmas for which she was unprepared.
pg4 TLD
I'd think the significance of "Jacob" would stand out, ladders to heaven wrestling with God and Angels, sibling deception and redemption, fathering the tribes of Israel.... plenty of subject matter to be allegorical about.
Could Smokie be a pillar of fire?
"Winston, if you were my husband I'd give you poison" ................ "Madam, if you were my wife I would drink it!"
"Terrorism is war by the poor, and war is terrorism by the rich"
"A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well."
"The opposite of pro-life isn't pro-death. Y'know?"
"What if the Hokey Cokey really is what its all about?"
I guess no one's talking about the last ep-interesting choice of pilot-interesting explanations of the "Lampost". I wish this blankety, blank show was two hours long-it gets me all worked up and then boom, it's over...
This show keeps blowing my mind so often, I don't know where to begin.
Honestly, it feels like the last season already. I can't imagine how they are going to ramp up the tension to produce a better season next year. This is the best TV show I've ever seen.
Little details come back that you might have forgotten, that only confirm that the writers know what they're doing. Latest example, Frank Lapetus as the pilot. If you recall, he tells the lady on the phone at Oceanic he knows the pilot of 815 because he was suppose to pilot that flight.
I'm glad Lost isn't going to make any concessions or lose its steam. So many shows (Heroes) gives into fan requests or runs out of ideas, but Lost is like a book and the writers know where they wanted to go from the beginning. It's going to be one heck of a ride, and the sixth season may indeed be the best.
Episode 316...alotta redux in this one...but alotta funny one liners too. As Way said.."We're not going to guam , are we?..has got to be rite up there with any other Great Lines...Jack,,How can you read?..Ben..My mother taught me..( Hes lying)
Jack, " Did you know about this? Ben, " No, I never knew about this, " Jack " Is he telling the Truth?", Mrs Hawkings, " Probably not." Hurley," Better buckle up Dude!"
I mean c'mon guys,, Jacks back on the Island and whats the first thing he does,,, SAVES HURLEY!!,,..its alll right Hurley we can stand now,, 2nd thing he does,, SAVES KATE!!!...Kate,Kate,,wake up Kate,,,TADDDAAAA!!!Mr FIX IT, THE HERO Has returned!!..We're definitely seeing the events of this episode thru Jacks eyes..He is so giddy about going to the Island, nothing else matters.. Nothing!!! Aaron?,,hey just don't ask,,but a quickie is good..Oh! Theres Sayid..okay hes in cuffs,, but uhh..mums the word.. and look theres Hurley!!..say nothing,,oh darn everyone is here except Ben,, Oh look,, here he comes.. One Good Sheelacking for ole times sake huh Ben?..I think Dez should have taken his diatribe one step further as in...and another thing Mrs Hawkings,,don't talk down to me like I'm a 5 th grader!!!..Well at least it was a great set up for the Darkness that is sure to come in explaining how the rest of the O6 ended up on board. Jin in uniform and VW Van sure did take the laffs out of the situation too.
Well,, season 5 is definitely the season of " Crazy". Every episode of season 5 has so far had one character calling or making reference to another as Crazy...So... Who Will Call Who Crazy in next episode? I say...oh...heres a good one...Ben will make reference to himself as Crazy..as in..No matter what you think, i'm not crazy...hes just a pathological liar who will say anything to keep in a position to manipulate, thats all.
Okay, theres been discussion on the abc board about ,,if any of the LOST production crew visits the abc Lost message boards. While not a lot, there have been a few references made in podcasts and on show, that yes, they do check out what the fanatical fans are saying and thinking...Episode 316 had one..did anybody else catch it? The only formula on the chalk board that was clear to see,,was as follows; (A1,,....,An). |np ....,,An. I wonder where they got that from? Crazy man,,.. Crazy!
Anyway,, Jack is so full of himself ! He turns a blind eye to all that made it possible for the others to show up..Like Bens said,, Who Cares? But Jack is in for a weight reduction program and no better place than the Island to get rid of that flab.
If she withdrew from exaltation, she would be forced to think- And every thought led to fear and contradictions; to dilemmas for which she was unprepared.
pg4 TLD
Incredible, beautiful: first froward looking episode I seen in a while-even though it reverts to one of the most blessed years in my life 1974 the year I was freed from Hogwarts.
..Much speculation on that statue...a consensus is forming that it is Anubis..an ancient Egyptian god of the underworld...processor of souls so to speak. The ankh it holds in its right hand is the same as the one worn around Amys dead husband.,,which is the symbol for Life..eternal life.
Fascinating episode. I've been waiting for the likes of La Fleur for awhile. Again,, if you want to get the idea of where Lost is and is going,,just read up on Andre Breton and now that we are into the 5th season,, read his Arcanum 17.
They made the parable easier to see,,as some have actually complained about in season 5..but its still a goody. Instincts, when left in charge, over time will get it right. The surreal play of the " opposites" are in the beginning of the episode and the end of episode. Sawyer and Juliet killing people to Sawyer and Juliet saving Life. Amy not trusting to Amy Trusting,,Godspeed interrogating hurt head Sawyer to Sawyer interrogating hurt head Godspeed.
Thru the arc of time, Sawyers " Instinct",,free from the influences of Mr Logic and Mr Faith, allowed to exist in its natural state,,becomes the de facto leader as a consequence of his Instincts and ,,also finds Love. ..LaFleur. Fascinating reprise of the eye glasses as metaphor for seeing clearly applied to Sawyer. And look at the arc of Julie on this episode..She went from,,i still want to get off this island...to apparently finding something more important..LOVE. People were complaining about the Gloom Julie of season 5, not saying much and just standing around. Now we kno why..so that when Gloom Julie found LOVE,,the marked difference would stand out in high contrast..She looked and acted like she was 10 years younger.
Aaah..but we all know who has come back to the Island. did anyone else catch the slo pan from the twisted ankh like sheets up thru the couple in Love intertwined bodies when the fone rang? Julie's bare back reminded me of the Statue. And then we see.. Sawyer removing his glasses, as he gazes at Kate..great metaphor. So,,when Instincts is left to carry on,, it finds its Humanity naturally,,,but the question is now..how long can it hold on to its Humanity with all the other influences back in town.
If she withdrew from exaltation, she would be forced to think- And every thought led to fear and contradictions; to dilemmas for which she was unprepared.
pg4 TLD
Note to the island/Jacob/closest high-ranking Dharma official: Do not leave Jack and Sawyer alone for very long. They just don't play well together. They think they're friends, then one of them says something, and the other says something ...
I'm wondering how the writers will resolve the possible paradox of stopping young Ben or not.
Remember the list of names that the Others were using to select people from Oceanic 815? It appears we now know why certain people were not on the lists.
