The Vow's flaw

[dlbpharmd]

Are we talking about the same books? The Haruchai have changed dramatically in each Chronicles.

[[Syl]]

You were expecting prehensile tails or something?

What DLB said. To whom else would you compare them? The Ramen still do the Ramen thing. In the Second Chronicles the people of the Land still live in stonedowns and woodhelvins. The Giants... are Giants.

No, for as static as advancement of any kind is in the Land (and this is intentional, if you read the GI), the Haruchai have changed dramatically. And this is considering they communicate telepathically, including passing down all their knowledge and traditions that way.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

Sorry, but I don't sense it in their speech or manner. Maybe they have because SRD says so-through exposition, both verbal and conveyance (I don't know what to call it when SRD has a paragraph that explains things as if they were thoughts of his characters, but not quite), but Stave is a Bloodguard the same as Bannor was 7000 years prior, this time maybe a little more aware and darker, an individual.

And because the Vow is broken, they should be far different by now, IMHO.
The Giants in the 2nd had not Despaired nor been Corrupted, the Ramen in the Last have not Despaired nor been Corrupted...

...so they could plausibly still follow a nearly static cultural path, at least in the Land. But the Bloodguard have been Corrupted...their path from PTP on should be different...

Don't get me wrong, I love the Bloodguard of the 1st Chrons...I'm just not very into what SRD did with them in the 2nd and now the Last, though the Ardenol piece was poignant.

[[Syl]]

In the first Chronicles, the Bloodguard are practically interchangeable. They are the perfect soldiers... uniform. The fact that they communicate telepathically can only make this moreso. Think about how much more in common you have with your siblings or your friends just because you share common experiences and even common lingo. But if you literally, directly shared thoughts?

Then consider that these are a people that value (embody) stoicism. This value being a cultural norm that is passed on telepathically. Compare that to any aboriginal people that pass on their history orally and kick it up a couple notches. And if you think you got tired of hearing the same old stories from your parents... It would be like Dad being able to play your great-great-grandfather's home movies right in your head, and the man never stopped filming.

So, yeah, they're all going to have the same mannerisms. That doesn't make them static.

Spoiler

If you don't understand this, certain sacrifices a character makes could have no meaning.

[rdhopeca]

Sorry, but I don't sense it in their speech or manner. Maybe they have because SRD says so-through exposition, both verbal and conveyance (I don't know what to call it when SRD has a paragraph that explains things as if they were thoughts of his characters, but not quite), but Stave is a Bloodguard the same as Bannor was 7000 years prior, this time maybe a little more aware and darker, an individual.

And because the Vow is broken, they should be far different by now, IMHO.
The Giants in the 2nd had not Despaired nor been Corrupted, the Ramen in the Last have not Despaired nor been Corrupted...

...so they could plausibly still follow a nearly static cultural path, at least in the Land. But the Bloodguard have been Corrupted...their path from PTP on should be different...

Don't get me wrong, I love the Bloodguard of the 1st Chrons...I'm just not very into what SRD did with them in the 2nd and now the Last, though the Ardenol piece was poignant.

Stave is not a Bloodguard the same as Bannor was:

Spoiler

Stave rejects and breaks away from the Masters in FR; Bannor would not necessarily have done the same thing, given how he refuses to accompany TC in TPTP.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

Aargh. You're not getting what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about speech patterns and how they tend to be a direct result of internal change. Part of what SRD seems to be trying to do is well, do better characters (with RotD), but Stave's speech patterns, mannerisms, what he says when he says it for what purpose, are pretty much the exact same as the Bloodguard before him all the way back to antiquity. He says and does more, chooses more, yes- but it's the difference between Telling the reader that the Harucahi have changed but Showing it by design, and Showing the reader the Haruchai've changed through the personality differences, choices, tendencies, etc.

[rdhopeca]

Aargh. You're not getting what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about speech patterns and how they tend to be a direct result of internal change. Part of what SRD seems to be trying to do is well, do better characters (with RotD), but Stave's speech patterns, mannerisms, what he says when he says it for what purpose, are pretty much the exact same as the Bloodguard before him all the way back to antiquity. He says and does more, chooses more, yes- but it's the difference between Telling the reader that the Harucahi have changed but Showing it by design, and Showing the reader the Haruchai've changed through the personality differences, choices, tendencies, etc.

I think to some degree we are seeing only a certain subset of the Haruchai culture, those who have been chosen (willing?) to fight and / or serve the Land. In many ways, this could be similar to how most Marines are trained to think / act / behave a certain way. The Bloodguard were only 500 after all, and the Haruchai in the 2nd chrons were only a couple of hundred at most, and likely their best warriors,

Spoiler

and one would expect the Masters to also be their best warriors.

So maybe we are only seeing the Haruchai with those personality traits exposed to us.

[Vraith]

They've gone from being servants of the old lords

Spoiler

to being Master's of the Land.

There are numerous particular (and in many ways more interesting) changes. You want them to go from being a unified society of honorable warriors to drunken, pocket-picking bards? You are ignoring what (and why) they are in favor of your own concept of how they should change. You're ignoring what the story was/is/is becoming in favor of what you want it to be...which is your right, but what you say isn't right.
In actual fact, what Stave does is almost entirely showing and not telling.

Spoiler

And part of the main point so far is that the Har. have claimed to learn, but in some ways failed to do so (or learned the wrong thing).

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

I don't want them to do anything.

I want the way they speak and act to change somewhat in seven thousand years to represent the internal changes they might have gone through.

[[Syl]]

Then you don't want them to be Haruchai.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

I'd disagree, you want them to be the Bloodguard of the Vow, I want them to be human beings.

Wait, ooooh...I think I got you now-the reason the Earthpower responded to the Vow, the drive and will of the Haruchai...

Hmmm....

[Fuzzy_Logic]

The Haruchai aren't human beings, and never were. I don't have my books with me, but I was under the impression that they were Earthpowerful from the beginning-- that their capacity to make such a Vow rested in their own puissance as much as in the self-knowledge of the Land.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Of course any vow made by haruchai would be impossible to live up to by anybody. It is the nature of the haruchai to demand the impossible, and the wonder is that the bloodguard managed it as long as they did.

The Bloodguard didn't manage it for as long as they did, not by themselves. The real force beyond their Vow was Earthpower. It's true the Oath itself was the product of Haruchai absolutism, but those absolutes were given the force of reality by Earthpower - it responded to the passion of their Oath more than the Bloodguard themselves even imagined it would be.

[iQuestor]

They aren't human. They arent intrinsically earthpower-ful.

The rock they were on in front of Revelstone and the extravegance of their vow was responded to by Earthpower (in much the way Earthpower responded to Berek when he was about to be defeated) and bound them to it. If you read Gilden-Fire it explains a LOT about the Haruchai.

edit:

WOTWE Said:

The Bloodguard didn't manage it for as long as they did, not by themselves. The real force beyond their Vow was Earthpower. It's true the Oath itself was the product of Haruchai absolutism, but those absolutes were given the force of reality by Earthpower - it responded to the passion of their Oath more than the Bloodguard themselves even imagined it would be.

Yes. well said.

[wayfriend]

I agree that the Haruchai are Earthpowerful.

But still: Earthpower (which enables health-sense) is everywhere. There is Earthpower in the very nature of the Haruchai, as there is in the essence of the Giants. (And in the Sandgorgons, who wouldn't care about health-sense if they had it, and in the Elohim, whose perceptions have gone way beyond ordinary health-sense, and....) Just because the Land--in a manner of speaking--lies closer to the water-table than other parts of the Earth doesn't mean that water, and the benefits of water, are unavailable elsewhere.

(12/05/2007)

Edit: iQuestor, we have crossed posts.

[iQuestor]

I agree that the Haruchai are Earthpowerful.

But still: Earthpower (which enables health-sense) is everywhere. There is Earthpower in the very nature of the Haruchai, as there is in the essence of the Giants. (And in the Sandgorgons, who wouldn't care about health-sense if they had it, and in the Elohim, whose perceptions have gone way beyond ordinary health-sense, and....) Just because the Land--in a manner of speaking--lies closer to the water-table than other parts of the Earth doesn't mean that water, and the benefits of water, are unavailable elsewhere.

(12/05/2007)

Edit: iQuestor, we have crossed posts.

I guess I took earthpowerful to mean -- they have talent and propensity to use it. I didnt consider their senses, etc. good post WF! thanks.

[SleeplessOne]

I want the way they speak and act to change somewhat in seven thousand years to represent the internal changes they might have gone through.

watcha talkin' 'bout; Stave told a joke in FR for chrissake ! - I havent got FR in front of me (what with being at work and all), but I believe it may have been implied that Stave's gag (something about Linden being stubborn ??) was possibly the first attempt at humour in the history of the haruchai

now that's progress

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I agree that the Haruchai are Earthpowerful.

But still: Earthpower (which enables health-sense) is everywhere. There is Earthpower in the very nature of the Haruchai, as there is in the essence of the Giants. (And in the Sandgorgons, who wouldn't care about health-sense if they had it, and in the Elohim, whose perceptions have gone way beyond ordinary health-sense, and....) Just because the Land--in a manner of speaking--lies closer to the water-table than other parts of the Earth doesn't mean that water, and the benefits of water, are unavailable elsewhere.

(12/05/2007)

I don't know what "in the very nature of the Haruchai" refers to. There is no referent for the phrase "in the very nature of." If it refers to the Haruchai (collectively?), then "nature" can be removed without losing anything, since the nature of the Haruchai is to be Haruchai. And the nature of the Elohim is just to be Elohim.

Furthermore, individuals from the "real" world can also partake of Earthpower, does this mean they have Earthpower in their very natures also? If so, where did it come from if its not innate or bound to their race or species?

[iQuestor]

WOTWE said:

I don't know what "in the very nature of the Haruchai" refers to. There is no referent for the phrase "in the very nature of." If it refers to the Haruchai (collectively?), then "nature" can be removed without losing anything, since the nature of the Haruchai is to be Haruchai. And the nature of the Elohim is just to be Elohim.

I believe SRD's answer meant that the Haruchai (all of them) contained earthpower in their beings, it was a part of their physical makeup -- which manifested itself in their heightened senses and physical haleness. The ranyhyn were also almost pure earthpower, and the elohim were 99 and 44/100th pure earthpower, the other 66 hundreths being pure arrogance.

Furthermore, individuals from the "real" world can also partake of Earthpower, does this mean they have Earthpower in their very natures also? If so, where did it come from if its not innate or bound to their race or species?

I dont see any claim that the ability to use earthpower = it being in your very nature. Covenant was sick until hurtloam was applied, or have heightened senses until he had spent some time. I dont think his senses were ever anywhere near the bloodguards, but he was able to benefit form it because it was abundant everywhere in the first chrons.

[wayfriend]

I don't know what "in the very nature of the Haruchai" refers to. There is no referent for the phrase "in the very nature of."

It seems simple to me. Earthpower is a fundamental component of a Haruchai.

That being said, I'm not sure if that in and of itself makes Haruchai something other than human.

My impression is that Haruchai are as human as the people of the Land. A different race, or ethnicity if you will, of humans.

The GI is maddeningly vague on this point. SRD compares Haruchai to "ordinary humans" in several places. I think this means he considers them extraordinary humans, but unhuman is a valid possibility.

Are there any indications in the text that Haruchai aren't human?