R Scott Bakker's "The Judging Eye" Discussion

[Brinn]

Has anyone besides me read this one yet? I'm anxious to discuss it.

[Seven Words]

is that book one of the Aspect-emperor series? the sequel series to Prince of Nothing?

edit: OK, just googled it...have to have the library order that bad boy for me (car repairs have sucked every spare cent out of the budget for next few months)

[Brinn]

Well worth it. If I were you I'd throw on a ski mask and go hold up your nearest Barnes & Noble!

[Zarathustra]

I just got mine in the mail! I'm starting tonight.

Should I reread the others first? Or is that not necessary to get back into the story?

[Brinn]

Dive right in my friend. I can't wait for you to reread the series (although I am rereading it now as I think the events in the Judging Eye will enlighten many parts of the original trilogy) to begin discussing this baby. I have too many questions, comments, speculations. Get cracking and provide a daily update here!

[Zarathustra]

Just 10 pages in . . . Khellus's son chasing a beetle through the temple. Wow. Bakker excels when he's writing about Dunyain. This is a perfect device for someone (i.e. the author) who is in a unique perspective to "see into people's souls" (i.e. the characters) and show us things that would otherwise be impossible for humans to show each other. This is what fiction is for, what fantasy is for. He is making explicit a level of interaction between author and character that is perhaps always present, but is usually covered up because the characters themselves can always only glimpse each other dimly and incompletely (being other than Dunyain). Just like real people dimly and incompletely glimpse each other all the time.

But this limit doesn't exist for an omniscient author. He can look into their souls . . . and he damn well better look into their souls. But--strangely--much too often, authors squander this unique perspective which doesn't exist (at least, not with such limitless access) anywhere else in human life, and these authors fall into the same pattern with their characters that we all fall into in real life with each other, and they forget that, like a Dunyain, we authors can see past the external. The very habits-from-beliefs that Khellus breaks out of as a character, other writers seem to fall into as writers (Donaldson is perhaps the exception).

So through Khellus (and now his son), Bakker shows us something that is theoretically possible for us all: to look beyond the surface, to pay attention, and to not lose sight of a person within the bundle of sense perceptions, beliefs, expectations, and social patterns we impose as a filter between ourselves and others. And by doing so, he creates not only a level of characterization I've never seen before, but he reminds me of how miraculous it is to be human. In a span of paragraphs. This man is a genius.

[Brinn]

Amen brother. You're preaching to the choir. I have seldom read an author where I have so often paused, awestruck, at the authors ability to astound me with his prose. And I'm not even referring to the more grandiose or dramatic moments that would typically elicit this response. Rather I refer to the more mundane moments, such as Kelmomas observing the beetle.

I'm anxious to see if you have the same reaction to the scene where Kelhus's generals parlay with the Sakarpian King.

[lucimay]

wow. and to think, i bought the third book of the series and never was interested enough to crack it open and read it.

just goes to show, ain't no accounting for what you're gonna like that the next guy ain't!

his style just never really hooked me. i found it dry. and you guys really love it.
and i know malik feels about erikson the way i feel about bakker and i feel about bakker the way malik feels about erikson! weird huh!

well at least we all like donaldson!

[Brinn]

Very true. I must admit I have the same reaction to Erickson. I've made it to Midnight Tides and have put it down for now because I have other books that I wanted to read. I really, really wanted to love Erickson but the books just don't grab me. I'm sure I'll finish them someday though. Maybe I'll appreciate them more after a full re-read.

[Zarathustra]

I fully intend to give Erikson another try, mainly because Donaldson loves his work (not to mention those here). I've told myself that I have to at least make it past the first book, because he apparently grew quite a bit after that one, from what I've heard.

But Luci, I didn't like the 3rd Prince of Darkness book, or at least how it ended. I assume you read the first two? What was it you didn't like?

His strongest point is how he handles characters, and how he chooses the scenes to develop them. Every time a scene is done, I felt that it was absolutely essential to the character's development, and what came afterward couldn't have happened without it. It was obvious that so much thought and care was put into constructing the story, that it feels like he never once lost his way (except at the end of book 3), that he had a vision from the beginning and the skills necessary to reveal it. I felt the writing was perhaps the best I've read besides Donaldson. This, to me, feels like "left brain" version of the "right brain" fantasy Donaldson achieves. It is so intellectual and philosophical, it just speaks to me in a very personal way. It feels very close to the kind of writing I would like to do myself. Each sentence is something to relish and savor. With every sentence, I'm constantly surprised by what he chooses to reveal, and the words he chooses in order to reveal it.

[Holsety]

Wow, this is out?

Thank you Brinn. I'd never know if not for this topic. I'm very, very happy I decided to buzz into the watch again today.

[Brinn]

I had to order mine from Amazon Canada. I don't know if it's been released in the US yet.

[Zarathustra]

My wife got it for me. I believe it is released now in the U.S.

I'm anxious to see if you have the same reaction to the scene where Kelhus's generals parlay with the Sakarpian King.

I'm taking this book slowly--working hard on my own, and don't have much time to for anything else. But that's fine, because I'm savoring it small sips. I want to drink it in and taste it completely with every ounce of my attention.

I'm up to page 24, and there was a scene where one general (Proyas) parlayed with Harweel (Sakarpian King). Unless there is another scene of parlance, this has to be it. To put it simply, I was blown away. I was reading in bed, and after that scene was done I set the book down and said, "Wow." Ki asked softly, "What?" And I told her that this author is astounding. But I knew she was expecting more, so I struggled to put it into words. Hell, I felt it was my *duty* to try to put my amazement into words, that one couldn't read something so thoughtful and articulate without giving it the courtesy of attempting to express its effect and its worth. So I told her, "He manages to come up with things to say that are immediately true and obvious, but he says them in such a way that makes you wonder how anyone ever thought to say it."

The scene immediately afterward, where Harwell's son is doubting his father's show of fear, is equally amazing. So simple. So true. And yet I don't know if I could have ever come up with the words to articulate such understanding of what matters between father and son. Their short talk by the dying embers of the fire is a thing of wonder. How few words Bakker needs to show Harweel's son's incomprehension and the father's wisdom, combined with understanding and forgiveness. I didn't expect to be touched, moved like this so soon and so easily.

Forget what I said about the left-brain stuff up-thread. Bakker knows how to express gentle, penetrating emotion, too.

I'm in awe.

[Brinn]

Bingo! Those very scenes may have been done thousands of times in books and movies but in Bakker's hands they become so much more.

"He manages to come up with things to say that are immediately true and obvious, but he says them in such a way that makes you wonder how anyone ever thought to say it."

That's a great way of putting it and it rather sums up my thoughts as well. The thoughts, ideas and emotions expressed resonate completely yet it is Bakker's expression of these truths that is original, remarkable and truly genius.

The fear and courage of Harweel pitted against the honest sadness of Proyas was amazing. This was not the contentious negotiation between two proud enemies but rather an emotional last chance to avoid an all but inevitable outcome.

And Bakker's observations of Sorweel's reaction to his father...don't get me started!

I'm so glad someone else is reading this as I've wanted to discuss it for a while now. Keep reading Malik and don't forget to give me the daily update!

[Zarathustra]

I assume you've finished it. You must have a good memory--those scenes were so short. I'm surprised they stuck out to you.

I like the "filler" exposition, too, such as the descriptions of massing the troops for the war march. The details he chooses to describe such a large, complex undertaking are both spare and revealing. He can get away with such few details because he is so discerning. He knows what matters. It's as if not only is he not making this up, standing there watching, but he's also a most discerning observer.

I liked:

They saw all the ornament, all the pomp and demonstration of ancient and faraway customs, thrown together and made a carnival. The bowl of each nation had spilled, and now their distinct and heady flavours swirled together, continually surprising the palette with some unheard-of combination. Long-bearded Tydonni throwing the number-sticks with wire-limbed Khirgwi. Kutnarmi monkeys climbing the gowns of Shigeki witches.

And:

They sang of their own might, of the doom they would deliver to the faraway gates of their enemy. They sang of their wives, their children, about the smaller pockets of the wider world they marched to save.

And:

"The days began to thaw what the nights yet froze. Preparations intensified. The order to march was a fervent occasion of tears and joyous shouts. There is a taste to these things. The wills of men coalesce, become one, and the air knows. The God did not only create the created, He created the act of creation as well, the souls that dwell within men. Should it be any surprise that the world of things answered the world of intents? The Great Ordeal marched, and the very earth, rising from dreary winter slumber, bent knee and rejoiced. The Men of the Ordeal could feel it: an approving world, a judging world."

"Should it be any surprise that the world of things answered the world of intents?"

I swear, lines like that are exactly what I'm going for in my own work. It's probably no coincidence that we are both motivated by our study of philosophy in producing our fantasy.

From the parlance, a memory Harweel's son is having:

"The how can we hope to resist him?"

"With our swords and our shields," his father had boasted, using the mock voice he always use d to make light of terrifying things. "And when those fail us, with spit and curses."

But the spit and the curses, Sorweel would learn, always came first, accompanied by bold gestures and grand demonstrations. War was an extension of argument, and swords were simply words honed to a blood-letting edge. Only the Sranc began with blood. For Men, it was always the conclusion.

And:

"Have you not read The Sagas?" his father was asking the Emissary, his voice incredulous. "The bones of our fathers survived the might of the Great Ruiner--Mog-Pharau! I assure you, they haven't grown too brittle to survive you!"

The Exalt-General smiled, or at least tried to. "Ah, yes . . . Virtue does not burn."

"What do you mean?'

"A saying in my country. When a man dies, the pyre takes everything save what his children can use to adorn their ancestor scrolls. All men flatter themselves through their forebears."

And:

As though deferring to some unknown rule of discourse, Proyas lowered his face. He glanced at the bewildered Prince before returning his gaze to the King of Sakarpus. "There is the surrender that leads to slavery," he said. "And there is the surrender that sets one free. Soon, very soon, your people shall know that difference."

"So says the slave!" Harweel cried.

The Emissary did not require the translator's sputtering interpretation--the tone transcended languages. Something in his look dismayed Sorweel even more than the forced bluster of his father's response. I am weary of blood, his eyes seemed to say. Too long have I haggled with the doomed.

He stood, nodding to his entourage to indicate that more than enough breath had been spent.

Of course, all these are taken out of context. If we have any uninitiated reading along, you've got to read them in their proper place to have the full impact. But there's a little taste.

[Brinn]

I assume you've finished it. You must have a good memory--those scenes were so short. I'm surprised they stuck out to you.

I've actually read it twice already.

It's as if not only is he not making this up, standing there watching, but he's also a most discerning observer.

Yes, you've once again hit the nail on the head. The details he relays are simple but convey volumes.

As though deferring to some unknown rule of discourse, Proyas lowered his face. He glanced at the bewildered Prince before returning his gaze to the King of Sakarpus. "There is the surrender that leads to slavery," he said. "And there is the surrender that sets one free. Soon, very soon, your people shall know that difference."

"So says the slave!" Harweel cried.

The Emissary did not require the translator's sputtering interpretation--the tone transcended languages. Something in his look dismayed Sorweel even more than the forced bluster of his father's response. I am weary of blood, his eyes seemed to say. Too long have I haggled with the doomed.

He stood, nodding to his entourage to indicate that more than enough breath had been spent.

This passage was the very one that struck me deepest when I read this scene. As I said, the scene is typical stock fantasy yet Bakker makes it so much more by his characterization of Harweel and Proyas. Both are wise and intelligent and the reader is not sure who is the more righteous. The embassy plays out as fresh and vital despite the familiarity of the scenario.

I can't think of a better author to emulate and if your fiction even approaches that of Bakker I can assure you I'll be in line to support your efforts with my hard-earned cash!

[Zarathustra]

Up to page 65. Yes, I'm reading at a painfully slow pace. While the language is beautiful and deserving of careful attention, I'm itching for a story. The string of extremely short passages create a sense of disassociated irrelevancy. I know this is a popular technique in modern fantasy, and often necessary with multiple POVs, but I hardly get a chance to settle in when we're off again to another break in the narrative. I really love that the Chronicles don't do this.


Also, I'm having a hard time caring about what's going on, because after 60+ pages, nothing has happened yet. I know he has several characters to catch up with (and we haven't even seen Khellus yet, except in one paragraph), but I wish I had a sense of what's going on at this point. There is a war getting ready to happen. Achamian is a recluse. Esmenet performs mundane Empress stuff. That's it.

I did like the introduction of Achamian and Mimara. But that was an entire chapter in which she asked him to teach her, and he said "no." It was extremely well written, but I hope the rest of the book isn't like this. Maybe if I read faster, I wouldn't have the sense that nothing at all is happening.

Please tell me there are lots of cool things that actually happen, and not just a well written description of people's observations.

Do we get to see much of Khellus?

[Brinn]

I'd say the plot progression is not as quickly paced as Prince of Nothing. There is a good amount of set -up going on and you definitely get the feel that this less a stand-alone novel than a set-up to a much larger story.

The story picks up steam around p. 135 (my edition).

To answer your questions: "Yes", lots of cool things do happen and "No" we don't see much of Kellhus directly save for a few very cool scenes. One thing I will say, I now have a new favorite character after reading this book!

[Zarathustra]

The description of Esmenet's children is really cool. The twins were spooky, staring into each other's eyes, two children "sharing one soul." It's even spookier because I read that part minutes after watching a show on TLC about conjoined twins.

[Brinn]

That brood is a real mess. I liked the insane one that they kept locked up. I also really enjoyed little Kelmomas' internal dialogue and his manipulations.

I wish you'd read a little faster. I'm dying to begin the discussion of some of the ramifications of the plot.

P.S.

Where the hell is Murrin and Holsety? They need to get this book read and get in this thread!