What Did the Bloodguard do after the Ritual?

KaosArcana · Post by **KaosArcana** » Sun Dec 08, 2002 7:48 pm

If I recall right, Kevin sent the Bloodguard back to the
mountains before he unleashed the Ritual of Desecration.

So, how long were they away and why didn't they die when
the Old Lords ceased to exist? And why did they come back?

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Sun Dec 08, 2002 8:19 pm

I can only assume that the Bloodguard knew that their Vow would apply again in the future - that new Lords would come to be - and did not say, "OK, we're done. The Vow doesn't count any longer." Because if they had, they would have lost the Earthpower's gifts, as they did when they did, indeed, say they were done.

Either the Earthpower is conscious, or it is not. If it is, as we might believe to be the case because of Berek's experience with the Fire Lions, then it must have agreed with the Bloodguard that new Lords would come, and kept them alive. Or it at least let them make the decision, whether it thought there would be new Lords or not.

As for what they did all that time (I don't remember how long between the Ritual and the new Lords), I don't remember ever hearing any mention of it. But they must have accomplished a WHOLE LOT. I mean, 500 Haruchai who didn't have to sleep, and didn't have to spend all their time and energy guarding the Lords could work around the clock doing whatever needed doing!

The thing that troubles me is that Bannor told Covenant that, if his wife was still alive, he would not be able to bear going back to visit her, and then returning to Revelstone. So I wonder if he found another wife between the Ritual and the new Lords, and then had to leave her too. Ouch!

Post by **Tenara** » Sun Dec 08, 2002 8:50 pm

I don't think Bannor would have found a new wife during that time. I get the impression that once the Bloodguard had committed their lives to serving the Lords and Revelstone their lives had no other purpose. So, all they had to do was wait until there were new Lords to serve, as they obviously realised there would be. I can't imagine what they did, or how they spent the time waiting, but I can't imagine living 2000 years either.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sun Dec 08, 2002 9:32 pm

Knowing and loving the bloodguard, I would say that they probably spent every minute of those years practicing their martial atrs techniques!

Post by **Sevothtarte** » Mon Dec 09, 2002 2:42 am

Fist and Faith wrote:Either the Earthpower is conscious, or it is not. If it is, as we might believe to be the case because of Berek's experience with the Fire Lions

Well, we know the Legend of Berek, but it probably didn't really happen like it was told there. At least it would be kind of strange if the Earthpower talked to Berek but didn't talk to the Lords later - or to Covenant.

I don't think it is conscious. Or if it is, it's in a way similar to Glimmerdhore and other forces of nature, sentient but VERY slow. If it were otherwise, it surely would have rejected Foul between the First and Second Chronicles instead of allowing him to recover close to it and get even so close as to be able to corrupt it.

KaosArcana · Post by **KaosArcana** » Mon Dec 09, 2002 4:07 am

Depends on what we meant by Earthpower, I think.

The Lords said that the One Forest was aware of itself in a way
that Stone was not ... and remember too that Earthpower
upheld Covenant on Glimmermere after he exhausted his
wild magic and allowed him to walk back to shore ....

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Mon Dec 09, 2002 10:43 pm

I very much want the Earthpower to be conscious. I'll tell you why, then why I think it is.

If the Earthpower is not conscious, then the ways that it and the Haruchai interact are merely functions of their nature. Like the way oxygen and the Haruchai interact. You and I can look on the Haruchai with awe, respect, admiration, etc. (I hope nobody's going to say that they look on them in any negative ways!!:)) But if the Earthpower is conscious, then IT ALSO looks on the Haruchai with at least some of those same feelings that I do. Oxygen does not think, "I like these Haruchai. I think I'll help them stay alive by being the power source for their cells." (Or whatever it is exactly that oxygen does for us.) But the Earthpower is saying, "The Haruchai are living examples of discipline, dedication, and honesty. Their fealty is so sure, like stone and sea, that it has come to even my attention. I will help them." And more, it might possibly also be saying, "If I join with them, I will share in their glory. I'd like to be associated with such a noble thing as these people." I don't want just us readers to recognize the wonder of the Haruchai, I want their world to see it too. Not just the other people who, in some ways, pale in comparison to them, but the world itself. Maybe the Haruchai didn't always have this connection with the Earthpower, but were as true as we know them. After thousands of years, maybe the Earth itself noticed the purity and truth that was emanating from this little mountain range.

Now on to how I justify my belief that the Earthpower is conscious. As I said, it's pretty clearly says so in the legend of Berek. True, it could be just a legend, subject to having been changed over time. But that can be said of everything we know that happened before the Bloodguard Vow. They are first-hand witnesses to everything that happened to Kevin after they met him, but what about before they met him? What of Damelon and Loric's deeds is real, and what is myth? I think Berek's story is real for two reasons: 1) Nobody ever said, "That's not the story I heard." 2) As KaosArcana reminded us, "But still the lake upheld him. The Earthpower gave him this gift as it had once gifted Berek Halfhand's despair on the slopes of Mount Thunder. It sustained him, and did not let him go until he stumbled to the shore in darkness." And that wasn't a spoken part, it was the narration. True, the Earthpower never spoke to anyone other than Berek. But maybe that's because that was the only time there was absolutely nobody else to carry on the fight for the Land. Everybody of any fighting ability was dead, the Haruchai didn't know of the Land yet, and the Unhomed had not landed yet. It knew that it needed to help Berek, and to get him to learn about it, so that good might be better able to fight evil in the future.

The problem of Foul having used a conscious Earthpower to heal himself is maybe explainable too. I can't find the quote, but I think Foul said that the Earthpower could not refuse him. Imagine Hitler freezing to death. If he could, he would build a fire to save himself. If fire became conscious, it might not like Hitler, and would not want to help him. But it would not be able to say, "I will stop being hot, so Hitler cannot use my warmth to help himself." Because it would not be fire without heat. It cannot stop being itself just because it isn't happy with how it is being used. Perhaps this is a good analogy. Maybe Foul took advantage of some aspect of the Earthpower, an aspect that it cannot change without destroying itself, to heal himself. The Earthpower may be able to refuse Hitler, but Foul probably has supernatural abilities that let him take advantage regardless.

I tell you, I'm thoroughly enjoying this website!!

KaosArcana · Post by **KaosArcana** » Mon Dec 09, 2002 10:51 pm

Remember, the destruction of the Staff of Law
weakened the Earthpower ... without that, Foul
would not have been restored by the Earthpower.
That's why Covernant felt responsible for all that
had happened to the land.

Post by **Sevothtarte** » Mon Dec 09, 2002 11:00 pm

I don't see how the fact that Earthpower supported Covenant means it's conscious. Following this kind of thought, everything would be conscious - but wind, magnetism and gravity aren't, though they all affect us.
What I mean is, it's not conscious in the way the human mind is conscious, but on a more primal level and on a different scale. Think of the world as the body and Earthpower as it's mind and soul - something that influences the lives of those tiny beings like humans, but which can't be talked to, understood, judged, influenced by them like other tiny beings.

As for the Bloodguard... Yes, they are noble, they are cool, I like them too. But they are not all around positive, as Covenant finally came to understand in the Second Chronicles. They torment themselves and put unbearable pressure on those they serve.

Post by **Skyweir** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 12:40 am

wow .. truly intriguing ..

I like where you are going with this hypothesis Fist and Faith .. I have often thought similarly ..

I wonder if 'earthpower' is fundamentally sentient.

.. thus the very real relationship between the inhabitants of the Land and the elements of the earth/earth power ..

..ie: the inhabitants do not burn wood for their own personal warmth .. not even the Stonedowners did [1st chrons not 2nd where there lore was lost to them] .. rather they use 'lore' to release the needed earthpower to do the same thing [ie: gravalingas will use graveling (sp?) for warmth] .. and still preserve their highly valued finite resources ..

And even so .. the inhabitants dont see their world or the elements within it .. as impersonally as we do .. we see tree's etc in these terms [finite resources] they see them much more intimately/personally .. endowing these elements egalitarianly with an acknowledgement of the earth's [trees, stone, sea, rivers] innate sentience ..

I am not sure that is clear .. but these elements which we deem as non-living non-organic/organic substances .. they revere as living co-existents .. on which their entire survival is dependant upon ..

but moreso .. as their environment is embued with sentience .. the elements [stone, tree's, river's lakes] are thus intrinsically cognizant of those that inhabit their shared earth .. and remain consciously mutually and appreciably dependant upon one another for their mutual survival ..

hence the lore of the inhabitants of the earth .. that is mutually beneficial .. to both the environment and those existing within it.

ok .. I fear I am rambling .. be back following more thought on the matter ..

Post by **[Syl]** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 2:49 am

The One Tree, Ch 7: Elemesnedene

Dear God! She could hardly form words through soundless adumbration of the chimes. The Elohim -- ! They're Earthpower. The heart of the Earth. Earthpower incarnate.

The One Tree, Ch 22: Also Love in the World.

"But a hate rose against the forest, seeking its destruction. And this was dire, for a tree may know love and feel pain and cry out, but has few means of defense. The knowledge was lacking. Therefore we met, and from among us Appointed one to give her life to that forest. This she did by merging among the trees until they gained the knowledge they required.
"Their knowledge they employed to bind her in stone, exercising her name and being to form an interdict against that hate. Thus was she lost to herself and to her people-but the interdict remained while the will of the forest remained to hold it."
"The Colossus," Covenant breathed. "The Colossus of the Fall."

So it reasons the earthpower is conscious, or at least that the elohim are the conscious expression of it.

Could it have been one of the Appointed that came to Berek? Or could it be more of a subconscious effort on the earthpower's behalf... the same with the bloodguard's vow?

also, the earthpower can be commanded (i.e. the 7th ward), so that also would lead one to think it is conscious, else how would it hear?

Post by **Sevothtarte** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 3:40 am

Sylvanus wrote:Could it have been one of the Appointed that came to Berek?

Not THAT is an idea... Back then the Elohim were still travelling the world, it might well be one of them had a hand in this. If we assume Berek really did talk to someone/something like it says in the Legend, an Elohim would be the best explanation for me.

also, the earthpower can be commanded (i.e. the 7th ward), so that also would lead one to think it is conscious, else how would it hear?

Hmm, the term 'command'... You can order a machine to do something, command your PC to print out a page by pressing a button, command a dog to do something... No proof the commanded thing is sentient/intelligent on a human level or even at all.

Post by **[Syl]** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 5:17 am

Hmm, the term 'command'... You can order a machine to do something, command your PC to print out a page by pressing a button, command a dog to do something... No proof the commanded thing is sentient/intelligent on a human level or even at all.

True, command doesn't necessarily mean sentience, but it does mean it can respond.

Currently, I'm going with a kind of Id, Ego, and Superego idea.

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 5:43 am

Alibran,
I like your answers a lot. I think you're probably right about them not having found other wives. And I like that you didn't try to answer questions that can't be answered. Not that that ever stops me

As I'm about to demonstrate. (heh)

KaosArcana,
Thanks for the original post, and your replies. I didn't realize I had forgotten such vital stuff! It's been many years since I read the 2nd Chronicles. (And with a third baby due in a month, I don't see it happening any time soon.) I just found what you've been talking about in Soothtell. Great, great chapter!

Sevothtarte,
I think the words "The Earthpower gave him this gift" are the important ones for my view. I agree with you that the ability to follow a command does not necessarily suggest sentience/intelligence. But I think the act of giving a gift does. Of course, SRD may have been being overly poetic in that paragraph. I'm sure there are at least dozens of poems that say the wind is doing something or other that we normally only think humans can do. (Not sure how many poems say similar things about gravity or magnetism though

) But I don't take SRD's words that way. Like I said, I want this for the Haruchai, despite their imperfections, so I take those words literally.

Sylvanus,
Your idea is a good one. I think that Hinduism can be interpreted this way. Brahman is not normally thought of as being conscious. But it is the basis, the essence, of everyone and everything. We are all expressions of it. Some expressions of Brahman (like gods) have a stronger connection to it, a more thorough understanding of its truest form, than others (like us). The three main gods (Vishnu, Brahma, and Shiva) have a perfect understanding of Brahman. [I'm not a Hindu, but this is my understanding from what I've read. Hindus might disagree with it. But then, some Hindus might disagree with other Hindus. And now I'm way off topic!]

I guess the Elohim could be the manifestations of Earthpower that have the strongest connection with, AND the most thorough understanding of, it. The Earthblood might be as connected, but doesn't seem to have any awareness. The Ranyhyn and Haruchai, though more connected than the typical person in the Land, have a lesser connection than the Elohim or Earthblood. But I'd say they are both more aware of it, or anything else for that matter, than the Earthblood. Mhoram (according to himself) is, by nature, less connected than the Haruchai. But he is more aware of it, while they just live without contemplating it at all.

So should we make a heirarchy of connectedness to Earthpower? ROFL! Sorry if I've gotten carried away

Post by **Zahir** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 7:45 am

Such an interesting question--or should I say pair of questions?

What did the Bloodguard do?

My take on that is that the Bloodguard, being the supremely patient and disciplined bunch they were, wouldn't decide on anything until they understood to their own satisfaction what was going on. They returned to a desecrated Land to find Revelstone empty. Likely they sent scouts in all directions, eventually discovering the Giants had willingly left Coercri prior to the Ritual. When the Giants returned, no doubt the Bloodguard decided their duty still existed, albeit to a Council that had to be reformed.

So, the Bloodguard might have spent the next few centuries looking for survivors and helping them reestablish themselves.

JMHO

Is the Earthpower sentient?

What makes me fumble at this is the whole question of "what is sentience?" Because while I do think the Earthpower is in at least some sense aware (others have already pointed out the evidence), I rather doubt it can be considered anything like a person. The analogy would be maybe the intelligence of the Land's Forest, which simply doesn't perceive the world the way humans do.

Again, JMHO.

Post by **Skyweir** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 1:19 pm

but for an organism [organic/non-organic element] to be sentient it doesn't have to be human or particularly .. 'a person' .. it just exhibits the capability for thought/sense/feeling ..

I would have a problem with asserting something has a consciousness .. to me this is more indicative of what we regard as a human attribute .. to suggest a tree possesses consciousness is similar to it possessing sentience in kind .. but to me is more indicative of its possessing a mind or an organic brain ..

but thats just my own conditioning that leads me to think that way .. who says the stones trees and earthpower of the Land does not possess something akin to a mind .. or brain ..

anway .. it may just be semantics .. either way .. having sentience is not dependant upon being 'a person'/human.

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:31 am

Yeah, we're into a whole philosophical thing now, aren't we

What is sentience? What is consciousness? (Anybody want to get into "Does free-will exist? Hmmm, let's not

) It all reminds me of something that Fools Crow said. He was a holy man of the Lakota Sioux, and nephew of Black Elk. He was asked, "Do you believe that a rock or earth has feelings?"

"If everything that has been created is essential to life and balance and harmony, then they do. It depends upon how you think and how you define life. If you believe something has life, it has life. Wakan-Tanka has taught us to think about creation this way, and when we do, the life all things have within them becomes apparent to us, and we treat them accordingly. We do not abuse or misuse them. It is one thing to step on something you think has no life or feelings, and another to step on it when you think it does. When I pray each day, I pray for the health and healing of the whole creation, not just for people. And I ask Wakan-Tanka and the Helpers to help me walk on Grandmother Earth with compassion and understanding for all that exists."

I think Mhoram could have said this, eh?

Post by **Skyweir** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 12:19 am

mmm .. I like that .. very eloquent ..

Post by **duchess of malfi** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 6:16 am

I would like to throw something into the whole Bloodguard/sentient Earthpower mix...
Someone is going to have to help me, though, because I can't find my copy of Daughter of Regals...
In Gildenfire when Korik is remembering the moments when the Huruchai became the Bloodguard, doesn't he remember the feeling of something drawing near and listening to them as they first formed their Vow? And then the Earthpower entered them and seared the Vow into them?

Post by **Sevothtarte** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 11:03 pm

Yup... I only have a translated version of Daughter of Regals, not the english one, so I can't give the exact quote, but it goes something like this:

"... the earth seemed to become hot and alive under their feet, as if Earthpower drew nearer to the surface to listen to them. And as they finished and sealed their Vow so there could be no return or fail, the ground shook and fire burst through them, melting them to the bone with the promise."

Hope that wasn't too far from the real text...

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

What Did the Bloodguard do after the Ritual?

What Did the Bloodguard do after the Ritual?

Lord Foul and the Weakened Earthpower