Help! Calling all Watchers...

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

Okay, I've got a massive...problem.

Please understand, plot in a story is everything to me, it's the driving force behind most of the tension in a story, it's what drives you forward...suspense, mystery, characters that can change the course of the plot, if you were aware of one in the first place...plot, damnit!!!

I'm now 1/3 into FR, having forced myself to finish Runes, our foursome has just met Lord B on their way to the Forest...

And I can't read any further. I can't stand it - there' s no plot the reader is aware of, very little dramatic tension, characters are flat or uninteresting or pointless at the moment, Linden just keeps asking more questions, and here I thought something interesting was happening, cause I sware the being Linden though was Cov was actually Roger, but so far that's not it, so far it's SRD's "paradox" concept played out bad-like, uggggggggg...I can't handle it!!!!!!!!!

I can't read anymore! I can't take it! I've tried to pick the book back up...and I can't, I just have no interest, I know who we're going to meet soon in the Woods, but so what, there's no tension, no plot, I have no idea what the greater issues are that are happening from C's POV...Ugg! It's Basic Writing 101, the reader has to have something at stake to have tension, I can care all I want about Linden or Cov, but what's the threat to Cov, or Linden for that matter? I ask you, what????? The Mummy is uninteresting, and I know who he really is- oooooohhhhh, wow, that's dumb, let's grab a tertiary character that existed to complete the plot arc of another race, and then do this...meh!!! I say, meh!!!!...and he and his plot thread still don't interest me, his "the lady is wise" over and over "I made a good choice, you serve my purposes" - horrible contrived over and over dialogue. Meh!

There hasn't been one scene, no not one, in Runes or FR so far that matches up to even the average scenes in the 2nd Chrons or the worst in the 1st...I don't even care...okay, two white gold wielders and the staff of law walk into a bar, or time...who's gonna mess with them? Oh, but Keivn's Dirt was made to do exactly what it does...and this doesn't sound at all a little contrived? Oh, this Theomach, he's soooo powerful, and there are other more powerful beings...but you know the problem? That kills the dramatic tension because there's no limits the reader is aware of on multiple levels with multiple races and characters, BESIDES the great powers in the hands of our beloveds...

I guess I need support, someone give me a reason(s) to liv...err, read on (without spoilers)...please, encouragement, something...I beg you, I want to finish...but I...just...can't...pointless it seems...

Help.

[Savor Dam]

Press on.

There is not much that can be said that would not be a spoiler, but it is worth your while to read further.

[rdhopeca]

Press on.

There is not much that can be said that would not be a spoiler, but it is worth your while to read further.

Agreed. While I will admit that the 3rd Chrons so far does lack in comparison to the 1st and 2nd, reading on is definitely worth your while if you are where you say you are.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

Press on.

There is not much that can be said that would not be a spoiler, but it is worth your while to read further.

Why? Is there a plot in the future? Or will Linden just keep asking questinos that allow SRD to exposition to death something else? It doens't matter if the pace picks up if there's nothing at stake for Cov or Linden.

[Fist and Faith]

Sorry, I can't help you. I'm severely disappointed in the Final Chrons.

[StevieG]

Sorry, I can't help you. I'm severely disappointed in the Final Chrons.

Is that post number 164 now?? don't answer that

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Press on.

There is not much that can be said that would not be a spoiler, but it is worth your while to read further.

Why? Is there a plot in the future? Or will Linden just keep asking questinos that allow SRD to exposition to death something else? It doens't matter if the pace picks up if there's nothing at stake for Cov or Linden.

I bogged down 3/4 of the way through FR. This was after a major scene or two had played themselves out. I find the book more interesting in retrospect. I can revisit certain scenes here on the Watch and give them a little analysis.

I don't see so much paradox. I see that Linden's playing dumb blonde eventually plays into one of the greatest scenes of the Last Chrons. It all has a purpose, nothing is incidental here, just boring. Some of it is an SRD ploy designed to keep your attention on Linden. The book then typically leaves us with a cliff-hanger and a three-year wait.

[Auleliel]

At about the half-way point FR gets interesting for a while, then the excitement fades until the last three pages or so (which are a must read).

[thewormoftheworld'send]

At about the half-way point FR gets interesting for a while, then the excitement fades until the last three pages or so (which are a must read).

Yes, and as it turns out

Spoiler

LA is carrying Sheriff Lytton's love child.

[Auleliel]

At about the half-way point FR gets interesting for a while, then the excitement fades until the last three pages or so (which are a must read).

Yes, and as it turns out

Spoiler

LA is carrying Sheriff Lytton's love child.

That would certainly be an interesting turn of events.

[SkurjMaster]

Jacob Raver,

Push on, brother! My belief is that RoTE was a set up for FR, but I think FR is a set up for the remaining two books. If you are still in the narrative where you said you were, then you must keep reading.

Read, read, read!

You won't regret it.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

Worm, the paradox that I see is in Cov's attitude around Linden, quite testy, and the Ramen's description of what was said through Anele at Glimmeremere...the lovingness of that being...

See what I mean? Maybe the loving one is the Creator...I dunnoe. Meh. Fatally Irrelevant just sucks so far.

[Vraith]

I think if you really feel the way you do about all the things you said, maybe you should just stop. [not being snarky, just saying why do something you hate if no one is forcing you?]
I don't think Linden asking questions is just an excuse for exposition, I think it's good characterization...and her only way to get what she needs. [not liking Linden and complete disrespect are entirely different animals]
If you don't think she has anything 'at stake,' that's simply untrue...[the stakes being high enough, or you caring about them are a different matter]
If you don't think the conflicts between all the various powers is plot, mystery, then what is it? [predicting LF will be sneaky, will play many sides, try to destroy the arch is like predicting their will be soldiers and fighting in a war flick...it's the how and people that matter.]
Whether it's as good as the other Chron's. is [will always be] a matter of opinion. ATM, I think it's not as good, still far beyond most fantasy, but reserving judgement. It is different dynamically, certainly. Not as many, or as extreme, ups and downs. I feel a long, slow burn of rising tension...Every time something is answered or solved, I think "yes, but..." [God! does that mean I feel like Linden?!] and the tension rises instead of being relieved [what little relief I get is shortly ruined by something else]...but that's me..And in a way necessary to the integrity of the story's 'history.' Certain elements have to be there, but since we're already familiar with them, they sometimes feel less dramatic. The haruchai, for example. We know them, what they're like, that they'll be there. Anyone who claims to have known they'd be 'masters' is prescient or lying. But the 'drama' of it is cushioned because we know them. We expect them to go to extremes, be inflexible, and be mistaken.
You aren't required to believe or agree with any of that.
But if it all means nothing to you...why bother? Or take a break and see if you start to miss it.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

I think if you really feel the way you do about all the things you said, maybe you should just stop. [not being snarky, just saying why do something you hate if no one is forcing you?]
I don't think Linden asking questions is just an excuse for exposition, I think it's good characterization...and her only way to get what she needs. [not liking Linden and complete disrespect are entirely different animals]
If you don't think she has anything 'at stake,' that's simply untrue...[the stakes being high enough, or you caring about them are a different matter]
If you don't think the conflicts between all the various powers is plot, mystery, then what is it? [predicting LF will be sneaky, will play many sides, try to destroy the arch is like predicting their will be soldiers and fighting in a war flick...it's the how and people that matter.]
Whether it's as good as the other Chron's. is [will always be] a matter of opinion. ATM, I think it's not as good, still far beyond most fantasy, but reserving judgement. It is different dynamically, certainly. Not as many, or as extreme, ups and downs. I feel a long, slow burn of rising tension...Every time something is answered or solved, I think "yes, but..." [God! does that mean I feel like Linden?!] and the tension rises instead of being relieved [what little relief I get is shortly ruined by something else]...but that's me..And in a way necessary to the integrity of the story's 'history.' Certain elements have to be there, but since we're already familiar with them, they sometimes feel less dramatic. The haruchai, for example. We know them, what they're like, that they'll be there. Anyone who claims to have known they'd be 'masters' is prescient or lying. But the 'drama' of it is cushioned because we know them. We expect them to go to extremes, be inflexible, and be mistaken.
You aren't required to believe or agree with any of that.
But if it all means nothing to you...why bother? Or take a break and see if you start to miss it.

Nice post, Vraith. Some thoughts...
- I never said it means nothing to me. Would I rant like that if it meant nothing to me? Would I post this to all you wonderful people if the Chrons, Cov, the Land, etc. meant nothing to me?
- If you don't feel like Linden, or have to ask yourself "oh but what is Linden really feeling", then the writer hasn't written the character and the story well enough, you should already identify with what the character is going through intuitively, especially after a five hundred page setup book...
- What Linden has at stake is ridiculously high, but for some odd reason, I just don't care that much...and I should, I did before in the other Chrons...this is a problem that I can't explain...
- Part of the problem here is probably that I'm an 8 in Enneagram language, so if anyone knows what that means, well you get the picture (plus my intesity)...
- The conflicts between the various powers can work, if told currectly
...I don't know, the Elohim are too powerful, the skurj, well, we haven't seen em yet (at least where I am), Kastenessen being a bad guy in this one is sooooooooooooooo contrived, though I can see the bigger Elohim picture playing out I think, it's still contrived in my opinion. See, those issues aren't what makes a good story, aren't what we're interested, we're interested in what our protagonist is interested in, her son, her former lover...not all this other stuff that an author will be interested in...
- Yah, I recognized that the lack of new and interesting characters, races, places in the Land, havoc of the Land is a huge issue...the only time I get lost in any of these two books is when something I didn't already know about is described...and Kevin's Dirt is [dumb]...I don't care that it serves Elohim purpose #2...it's [dumb]!
- Tolkien didn't write about the Elves vs. Morgoth, he wrote about a much smaller battle because it's not the larger picture that's interesting, it's the human struggles as we reflect on our own little places in this life, Morgoth and the Elves were too powerful to write about, there would be little inherent dramatic tension because of the lack of limits on power and Tolkien knew this...I felt somewhat the same way with the 2nd Chrons as I do here with the 3rd, but the 2nd had very interesting characters and new places, new twists with things we love (the Land!!!), beautiful and emotinally moving scenes, and Nom and Vain!
- I just don't know...

[mod edit]

[Seareach]

I'm with Vraith. If it's *that* bad then just put the book down and walk away. Life's too short to subject yourself to something that's *that* bad, and too short to spend hours complaining. No one's holding a gun to your head. imo

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

I'm with Vraith. If it's *that* bad then just put the book down and walk away. Life's too short to subject yourself to something that's *that* bad, and too short to spend hours complaining. No one's holding a gun to your head. imo

Not for an Enneagram 8. But I think I agree...

(if there's anyone who reads this that knows the Enneagram please drop a post, I'd love to maybe start a thread to discuss it...)

[Seareach]

Not for an Enneagram 8. But I think I agree...

...but I thought there was 9.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

Not for an Enneagram 8. But I think I agree...

...but I thought there was 9.

There is, and I think it's my primary Wing...

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Moved to General Discussion forum for Jacob Raver.

[Zarathustra]

I'm not sure exactly where you're at now, but if you haven't concluded the Berek stuff yet, you're in for a treat that pays off nicely.

You have said some things that all of us here who have read are (I'm sure) dying to comment on, but we don't want to spoil it for you. So you owe it to yourself to keep reading at least to the end of the first half. The payoff with that climax is extraordinary. I don't want to build it up too much, just in case it disappoints you (I have a feeling that for you, it would. Yes that's a dare. I dare you to enjoy it. ). But I feel it stands up to the very best scenes of the first two Chronicles. And, of course, the ending climax does as well.

This book is about two climaxes, and the slow climb towards them. I feel that the climb in the first half is better than the second, so if you don't like it now, you're going to hate the second half.

What bugged me the first time around was this "contrivance" you note. It seems that all these people have knowledge which would simply solve Linden's dilemma if they'd just tell her. But Donaldson keeps coming up with ways to keep that information from her. We've discussed this many times. After the fact, I believe Donaldson achieves this with mastery. During my first read, I didn't think so. But that's because I didn't know enough, didn't think about it enough, to realize how intelligent it was. However, if it doesn't impress on the first read, then it's fair to say there must be some essential story-telling flaw. And I think you've pinned it: the motivation. I don't like the fact that all this rests upon rescuing a character we don't care anything about. And then, at the point you're at, this character doesn't give us many reasons to warm up to him. But Jeremiah has some surprises for you, too, and I'm warming up to him and his plight. After FR, I do get a sense of the suffering Runes tried to describe off-stage, which is an improvement. During Runes, I simply couldn't get worked up about a character I've never even heard speak, barely seen, and then his plight is entirely described through the imagination of his mother. We don't even see it, and we're supposed to worry about it.

That's another problem: everything important seems to be happening off-stage. All the conflict, all the bad guys, are far away and disengaged. We get oblique encounters with them, but that's not enough to give a sense of peril and danger. Sometimes Donaldson is too clever for his own good. I have a feeling that there are immediate dangers surrounding Linden that we just don't know enough to worry about them.

Do you really know who Theomach is? Go ahead and tell us.

And while you're at it, since you claimed to be good at prediction . . . any thoughts on Jeremiah? How about the big climax at the end of this book?

Perhaps that can be your motivation, which you're seeking in this thread. Go ahead and lay down your predictions in detail for us to see, and then read on with the danger that you are wrong. Perhaps in that way you can create a secondary layer of tension for yourself.