Ownership of the ring?

[Darkdenubis]

First post, but longtime lurker, thought I would throw out one of my random thoughts about these novels I have come to love so much.

My understanding is that only the true owner of the ring can call forth it's full power, so the ring has to be freely given.

Covenant wasn't the true owner when he destroyed the SoL, bested Foul and smashed the Illearth Stone...Hile Troy was.

Coventant's, "Take it. Save her." passed the ownership of the ring to Troy, but Troy never had the chance to use it because Caerroil Wildwood knocked the ring out of his hand to prevent Troy from breaking his oath. Thus, when Covenant picked the ring back up from the grass, he was picking up a lesser version of the Wild Magic. As it turned out, it was enough to do the job but, if my line of reasoning is sound, no longer the Time Rending power it could have been.

This also explains the need of the Venom in the second series...to boost the ring back to full potential.

Thoughts?

[Menolly]

No thoughts on your topic from me, just a welcome.

Be Welcome to the Watch, Darkdenubis.
Be Well Come and True.

Come say "hello" and tell us a little about yourself in the Say Hello in Here thread.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

Hoooolyyyyyyyy crap, Dark! Bladow! What a first post/thread...

I totally see what your talking about...but I don't think it's intentional, more a goof by SRD.

Welcome, man.

[rdhopeca]

Hoooolyyyyyyyy crap, Dark! Bladow! What a first post/thread...

I totally see what your talking about...but I don't think it's intentional, more a goof by SRD.

Welcome, man.

I don't think I would classify it as a "goof" or a mistake by the author. What has always been said is that if it was was taken from the owner by force, not given by choice, that the power might corrupt. Covenant didn't take it back by force, so there is no corruptive nature to his reclaiming of the ring.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

Still an inconsistancy...maybe not a goof...words, terms, wermds...

[rdhopeca]

Still an inconsistancy...maybe not a goof...words, terms, wermds...

I wouldn't even call it an inconsistency myself. I think it's complete explainable within the text of the books.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

Shouldn't what happened have some a/effect on it?

[rdhopeca]

Not necessarily. Let's assume for a moment that what the Elohim say is true, that power freely given is pure, where power wrested is wrought with Corruption. Let's also assume that power found is also free from said Corruption, since it was not wrested.

Covenant gives the ring to HT. But CW stops HT, and HT drops the ring. Covenant then picks it up. I would content that Covenant did not wrest the ring from HT, but rather reclaimed it as something he 'found'.

Comparable to me giving you a precious gift, and you dying, and me taking it back as the original owner, I would think.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

i suppose the use of the SoL and the Krill would follow your example also...

[wayfriend]

I think it is implied that ownership returns, in tact, to Covenant, in this situation. Maybe you could argue that it shouldn't, but the author seems to think it should.

This idea has come up before. But in the context of the final confrontation in the Second Chronicles. Covenant gives Foul the ring. When Foul disappears, who's ring is it? The author seems to assume it reverts back to Covenant, who can then give it to Linden.

I never noticed that this also happened in TOT -- nice find!

[iQuestor]

First post, but longtime lurker, thought I would throw out one of my random thoughts about these novels I have come to love so much.

My understanding is that only the true owner of the ring can call forth it's full power, so the ring has to be freely given.

Covenant wasn't the true owner when he destroyed the SoL, bested Foul and smashed the Illearth Stone...Hile Troy was.

Coventant's, "Take it. Save her." passed the ownership of the ring to Troy, but Troy never had the chance to use it because Caerroil Wildwood knocked the ring out of his hand to prevent Troy from breaking his oath. Thus, when Covenant picked the ring back up from the grass, he was picking up a lesser version of the Wild Magic. As it turned out, it was enough to do the job but, if my line of reasoning is sound, no longer the Time Rending power it could have been.

This also explains the need of the Venom in the second series...to boost the ring back to full potential.

Thoughts?

Well, SRD has said that there is a fundamental association with Covenant's ownership of the ring. ALso, here is this GI Post:

JP: I have a question about the nature of personal choice as it relates to Covenant's ring. Covenant tells Linden that the reason that Foul hasn't simply possessed him with a Raver to obtain the ring is that it has to be given by choice in order for its power to be unlocked. And when Hile Troy is about to use its power, it was given to him willingly by Covenant. Yet:

1) Dead Elena is able to utilize it when it's forcibly swiped from Covenant in Power That Preserves, and

2) Linden is able to "possess" Covenant to use the ring at various times.

Are there explanations that fit these instances into the theory of personal choice?

SRD's answer:

<sigh> All of this would be so-o-o much easier if I hadn't *forgotten* that Covenant gives his ring to Troy in "The Illearth War" and has it taken from him by Elena in "The Power that Preserves." I tell ya, folks, internal consistency's a bitch.

The key points to keep in mind are "the necessity of freedom" and Mhoram's assertion to Covenant, "You are the white gold." So, taking the questions that have come up from easiest to most difficult:

Troy is able to raise power from the ring because a) Covenant gave it to him, and b) Covenant's will, his volition, supports what Troy wants to do with the ring (save Elena from dead Kevin).

Elena, of course, doesn't actually raise power from the ring, but there are a couple of reasons why she might have been able to do so. (In any case, she isn't bluffing when she threatens the Colossus. She *believes* she can exert wild magic. She has, after all, lost her mind.) Volition is a complex thing: there are unconscious as well as conscious choices. And sometimes the unconscious choices subvert the conscious ones. At that point in his struggle, Covenant must have been feeling a certain amount of "death wish" (why else would he even think about tackling Lord Foul when he believes he has no power?), and his unconscious volition might have enabled Elena to use the ring against him. In addition--on a somewhat more conscious level--Covenant has known for a while that external forces can trigger a response from the ring; and he may have been hoping (volition again) that Elena's use of the Staff would trigger a reaction she didn't expect.

Linden's actions raise even more complex issues (not the least of which is my still fallible memory) (and let's not even mention my unwillingness to spend an hour or two researching each question in this interview). She has an emotional bond with Covenant that goes far deeper than consciousness. And on those occasions when she "possesses" him, she always seeks to control him in ways with which some part of him agrees. He certainly doesn't *want* to destroy Starfare's Gem, and he isn't exactly eager to walk into the Banefire--just to pick two examples that happen to come to mind. In other words, she taps into his unconscious volition (not always wisely, I might add).

It follows, naturally, that a Raver--or Lord Foul himself--could not make use of the ring as Linden does. They don't love him; have no bond with him; share none of his impulses, conscious or otherwise. And so they cannot win the cooperation (if you will), the volition, of any of his complex impulses.

All of these points, as I'm sure you can see, depend on the identification between Covenant and the ring. Which raises interesting questions for "The Last Chronicles." Now that Linden has the ring, is *she* the white gold? Does it truly *belong* to her as it once did to Covenant? As Spock might have said (deadpan, of course), "Fascinating."

(10/02/2004)

[Blackhawk]

Not necessarily. Let's assume for a moment that what the Elohim say is true, that power freely given is pure, where power wrested is wrought with Corruption. Let's also assume that power found is also free from said Corruption, since it was not wrested.

Covenant gives the ring to HT. But CW stops HT, and HT drops the ring. Covenant then picks it up. I would content that Covenant did not wrest the ring from HT, but rather reclaimed it as something he 'found'.

Comparable to me giving you a precious gift, and you dying, and me taking it back as the original owner, I would think.

that sounds about as close as we will probably ever get,

HT used the white gold but as Mhoram said "TC is the white gold" so ownership would have been almost more so like a lease... once the current owner dies, TC being the white gold would probably not even have to make claim..it might just revert to his possesion. had Cerroil Wildwood picked up the ring it would have been Powerful but not powerful enough to break the arch of time I suppose...


hmmm ...so in theory an ungreedy person could take the ring without the owner giving it freely, or if it was found after the previous owners death... someone like Mhoram for instance could still perform miracles with it so long as he didnt want enough power to destroy the entire planet. and could probably still defeat Foul time after time reverting him to an infant every 2-3 thousand years by blasting him with white gold and laughing in his face.


Welcome to the watch Darkdenubis.

[High Lord Tolkien]

TC also took off his Ring and tossed it to a Hirebrand in LFB (I forget his name).
And he gave it to the Old Man at the beginning of the same book.

[Darkdenubis]

Excellent posts, I thank you

[wayfriend]

SRD's answer:

<sigh> All of this would be so-o-o much easier if I hadn't *forgotten* that Covenant gives his ring to Troy in "The Illearth War" and has it taken from him by Elena in "The Power that Preserves." I tell ya, folks, internal consistency's a bitch.

[...]

(10/02/2004)

For completenes, it should be noted that SRD gives a completely different answer later in the GI. One that apparently contradicts this answer in many ways.

See this post.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

SRD's answer:

<sigh> All of this would be so-o-o much easier if I hadn't *forgotten* that Covenant gives his ring to Troy in "The Illearth War" and has it taken from him by Elena in "The Power that Preserves." I tell ya, folks, internal consistency's a bitch.

[...]

(10/02/2004)

For completenes, it should be noted that SRD gives a completely different answer later in the GI. One that apparently contradicts this answer in many ways.

See this post.

Try as I may, I cannot see any inconsistency or contradiction in SRD's answers. Then I thought that simply staring at his responses for a long time would elicit the contradiction, but none came forth.

[danlo]

Agreed.

[wayfriend]

Try as I may, I cannot see any inconsistency or contradiction in SRD's answers.

In his first answer, the power of the ring arises from Covenant's supportive will, regardless of who owns the ring.

In his second answer, the power of the ring arises from the wearer's relationship with the ring, and has nothing to do with Covenant per se.

This makes a difference. Consider the two explanations for Linden being able to weild the ring while possessing Covenant. One is explained by "she taps into his unconscious volition". The other is explained by "the more ... sensitivity [she] has, the more useful the ring will be".

Now, this is the Chronicles, so it may certainly be that both versions are true at the same time, despite being seemingly contradictory. So I'm not trying to say that either of these theories are wrong. Just that they seem to contradict.

I certainly like the second answer better. It's more in accord with the philosophy of "means of articulation" that Pitchwife describes. And it makes more sense with respect to Foul. Was Foul able to throw those massive bolts at the Arch of Time because Covenant willed it? Yes, I know someone can fashion an argument that he might have. But, still, Foul would always be limited, threatened, by the fact that the ring is useless to him if Covenant does not suport his using it.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

She taps into his unconscious volition, and the more sensitivity she has the more useful the ring will be.

Contradiction?

As for TC being required to will LF to destroy the Arch in particular, the only relevant thing here is that the ring is freely given. In that regard, this is the same as saying "here is the ring, do as you will with it."

The giving over in that case does not require any particular act be committed with it, just anything in general. TC is saying "it's yours now" without reservations. He is not saying, "here's the ring, but PLEASE be a kinder and gentler white gold wielder and use its power wisely, and don't destroy anything much less the Arch because that's not nice!"

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

The giving over in that case does not require any particular act be committed with it, just anything in general. TC is saying "it's yours now" without reservations. He is not saying, "here's the ring, but PLEASE be a kinder and gentler white gold wielder and use its power wisely, and don't destroy anything much less the Arch because that's not nice!"

That's what I would have done...