A question about Roger

[minmei900]

Maybe the Manacles erase his memory so he can't break the arch...

I'm way out on a limb here - I think it's going to break.

I'm not trying to advance the theory that Roger = Lord Foul, just that there is more of a relationship than we've been led to believe.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Foul seems to be wiser than Roger. He's a mastermind manipulator. Roger just waves his fiery hand at people. He's knowledge of the Land's history is intriguing but we (I) assume he acquired it with the Hand.

[earthbrah]

We've been told before that Foul cannot break the Arch by his own doing. If he could, he would have done it a long time ago. He needs a tool, or a manipulated power wielder...

Foul could be Roger, even with that hand, but as such he still could not break the Arch. Though I like this theory, the more I think about it, the less sense it makes to me. But it's making me think.

[Unfettered One]

Just noticed in ROTE that Roger spent his "just passing the time" time studying chemistry, biology, and anatomy (if memory serves) and worked as a butcher.

Think we'll see any applications of that in the coming books?

[Revan]

Just noticed in ROTE that Roger spent his "just passing the time" time studying chemistry, biology, and anatomy (if memory serves) and worked as a butcher.

Think we'll see any applications of that in the coming books?

I think he'll start teaching Science 101 in the Mouth Thunder University for Cavewrights.

[Relayer]

The bio and anatomy was to learn how to attach Kasty's hand to his wrist. After butchering off his own.

[earthbrah]

The fact that he studied these things makes me think that he planned to switch his hand with Kasty before ever coming to the Land.

Interesting...

[Revan]

I suspect surgery as such had nothing to do with the hand giving; personally i thought it was to enhance his murdering skills.

[Unfettered One]

Also, Roger proposes to Linden right before the summoning in ROTE that she grab a scalpel out of her bag and sever her right hand and give it to him. If she complies, he'll let Sandy go.

There's more to this hand-swapping thing in the last two books, methinks.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Also, Roger proposes to Linden right before the summoning in ROTE that she grab a scalpel out of her bag and sever her right hand and give it to him. If she complies, he'll let Sandy go.

There's more to this hand-swapping thing in the last two books, methinks.

Is this a serious proposition or tongue in cheek? Even if you're a trained physician (or butcher) you'll have problems cutting off your right hand. You'll have to do it with your minor hand (Linden is right handed, right?), you'll have to do it with only one hand, and you'll have to move that scalpel through tough tendon. I don't think Linden could have successfully done it by herself even if she wanted to do it.

But it's a nice hand-reference catch.

[Fullmetal660]

I think that hand swap is just a way or giving/recieving power, nothing more. I don't think it's gonna have huge repercussions later on.

[Auleliel]

I think that hand swap is just a way or giving/recieving power, nothing more. I don't think it's gonna have huge repercussions later on.

I disagree. Almost everything that Donaldson mentions in his stories has repercussions later on. I see no reason why this should be any different.

[Relayer]

Also, Roger proposes to Linden right before the summoning in ROTE that she grab a scalpel out of her bag and sever her right hand and give it to him. If she complies, he'll let Sandy go.

There's more to this hand-swapping thing in the last two books, methinks.

Is this a serious proposition or tongue in cheek? Even if you're a trained physician (or butcher) you'll have problems cutting off your right hand.

I'm sure it was serious, but not in the way that you mean. Roger is taunting her, and I'd bet that even if she did do it, he wouldn't let Sandy go... just as Foul attacked the Ranyhyn after Kelenbrahbanal sacrificed himself.

It may be that Linden has power inherent in herself (like the Elohim do) that if she had done so, Roger might have had equal power to what he has from his exchange w/ Kastenessen. And *giving* the hand may be critical; just like the ring it may not be the same if Roger were to just cut off Linden's hand and take it.

As to the technical details, obviously it would be difficult to do because of the pain, but there are documented cases of people who cut off a trapped hand or arm (for example after a landslide) in order to survive.

Another question is, what did Kassy get? I don't remember if he actually got Roger's hand. If so, what power does it have? If not, what else does Kassy get? Probably control over Roger, but is that enough?

[wayfriend]

One weird thing is, and I'm not 100% sure, is that the revised version of Runes for paperback changed "hand" to "last two fingers". I had heard that, can't confirm it. But if it's true, then we have to be careful what we read into this request.

[Nerdanel]

I think the UK paperback at least had Roger have a whole hand from Kastenessen.

If Kastenessen and Roger switched hands, Kastenessen may be thinking that if Roger becomes the rightful owner of a white gold ring (say, from Joan, if Herem lets her become sane enough to cede her ring), Kastenessen could either channel its power straight from Roger or take the ring for his own and wear it on his flesh hand. Then he could make short work of the Elohim and/or destroy the Arch in order to free himself from his pain.

[deer of the dawn]

Even with Kasty's knowledge, and/or Foul's, it does seem strange that Roger knows so well what Covenant would say, even if he says it wrong ("out of tune").

For me, the big question right now as I re-read FR is, what does Roger want?

He really doesn't work as hard as he could to get the ring away from Linden. I mean, if he had just acted gentle and sorrowful, even if she couldn't touch him, I think she would have given it to him because that's the TC she knew and trusted.

But it's like he doesn't entirely want her to believe he is Thomas Covenant. Or if he does, he just really sucks at it. It's as though keeping her in doubt serves a greater purpose than just getting the ring and getting on with breaking the Arch. Maybe he has already realized that whatever deal he struck with whatever forces, he will wind up the loser. So he's trying to thwart their purposes as well.

The now-and-again flaring of "embers" in his eyes seems to indicate Foul's presence. But I guess that's a wait-and-see. But where does the "Foul=Covenant" statement come from? I know SRD made comments about characters in Fantasy being externalized elements of other characters, but it's a long stretch from that to "Covenant=Foul". That would mean that Cov was somehow in the Land from before the beginning... now my head is starting to hurt.

I am only on my first re-read of FR, and was amused to come across the passage where "Covenant" waves his hand to warm Linden (because they appear in Berek's time in Winter) and then he looks at it "as if it doesn't really belong to him" (not an exact quote but close).

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

The more of these threads i read and the comments from SRD himself the more i believe that he has lost site of the "Story" and is caught up into the telling of the Narrative in a proper way.

What you have here is one train wreck in the story after the next that need vauge ambiguous explainations or some miracle work around answer after the next.

Super, mega, ultra Bump.

This might be a dumb question, but for the life of me, I can't remember why Roger hates Linden so much...

[Seareach]

This might be a dumb question, but for the life of me, I can't remember why Roger hates Linden so much...

Well, I can't remember if it's ever explained for sure but I'd go with the "You've got my dad's ring and I want it" thing....that and the fact that she's an obstacle he's got to face while in the Land. That may not be a really good reason to not like her, but I think that's it.

That and, in my opinion, Roger's just screwed up. I'd guess he doesn't like many people!

[Auleliel]

This might be a dumb question, but for the life of me, I can't remember why Roger hates Linden so much...

Well, I can't remember if it's ever explained for sure but I'd go with the "You've got my dad's ring and I want it" thing....that and the fact that she's an obstacle he's got to face while in the Land. That may not be a really good reason to not like her, but I think that's it.

That and, in my opinion, Roger's just screwed up. I'd guess he doesn't like many people!

Maybe it's also the whole "You got to be with my dad and I didn't", or the influence of Foul and/or Kastenessen.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

Seems a little weak at this point (trying to be nice here)...