Ownership of the ring?

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Recall that CW did not react until HT started blasting white fire into the sky. It was the use of wild magic which was a violation of Law, and at the same time, a way out of the promise.

[Edit to avoid creating too many posts]

Recall that the inconsistency, pointed out by the OP, lies in the fact that HT did not hand it back to TC. Therefore, the ring should have lost its potency when it came back to TC's hands. The inconsistency is not simply the handing over of the ring to anybody, but the failure to give the ring back freely.

Here is how that inconsistency is avoided. The ring was not forced away from HT because he was immediately paralyzed and rendered volitionless by CW's touch. The ring then fell from his grasp, not taken, and rolled back to TC; at that point in time, it was fair game for anybody close enough and wily enough to grab it.

What was taken in this case was HT's power of choice. Since choice was rendered irrelevant, the ring simply fell out of his possession and went up for grabs.

Precisely the same theory holds for the events at the end of WGW, the ring simply fell from LF's grasp and became fair game.

As for HT's promise to CW, he was bound by that promise, not by Law, but simply because CW would not allow himself to be cheated and was powerful enough to prevent it.

[The Eighth Ward]

I am with WF in regards to

I certainly like the second answer better. It's more in accord with the philosophy of "means of articulation" that Pitchwife describes. And it makes more sense with respect to Foul. Was Foul able to throw those massive bolts at the Arch of Time because Covenant willed it? Yes, I know someone can fashion an argument that he might have. But, still, Foul would always be limited, threatened, by the fact that the ring is useless to him if Covenant does not suport his using it.

My impression, and the story has examples of this, is that anyone can tap into the power of an item of magical nature - whether Staff, Stone, Orchrest, Lomillialor, Ring, Krill. The key is the articulation of the user.

As Amok taught us, "power comes freely to any willing hand." The question is what can be accomplished with that power, and this is dictated by the innate characteristics of the user.

Korik could have mastered the fragment of the Stone in some way, however his nature made such mastery fragmentary at best and someone like Foul could easily overcome him, thereby corrupting the Vow.

Witness Triock, a mere cattleherd, actually using Lomillialor to summon TC.

Kasreyn could "achieve perfect works and fear nothing" with White Gold, yet I doubt he could have destroyed the AoT even if he wanted to.

Linden can easily control the power of the Ring and manifest what she wants,

Spoiler

the Dirt notwithstanding

. Her nature, as a doctor, seems more suited to healing than to military uses. Non-healing uses seem to come with more difficulty.

Troy would have probably kicked some serious butt with the Wild Magic, being inclined more to military tactics, had CW not interfered.

In the end though, not even Foul is able to reave the foundations of time using wild magic without the "volition" of TC.

My belief is that only TC and Foul have the passion, i.e. the capability, to directly destroy the AoT using white gold, and only TC can facilitate it due to his nature being "not of the land", his ownership of the ring, and most importantly because he "is" the white gold. Foul, for all his passion, power, and lore, cannot manage it without TC's consent.

Spoiler

I suppose this argument goes hand in hand with the idea the TC and Foul are manifestations of the same being

Tangential thought - I suspect that TC, Linden, and Troy, all being from outside the Land, have capabilities with the White Gold that the Land's inhabitants do not have. They, and the white gold, exist outside of the Land's earthpower and the constraints inherent in such an existence.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Did Amok say that about power, or about the RoD and "desecration"?

Anyway, Rob answered the question, I give him credit for being first on the scene with the best answer in this and many other threads. But the question continues to fascinate for some reason.

HT would have kicked some serious butt just before he enacted his own Desecration.

But when you're talking about TC's volition regarding LF's use of the ring, you are really saying in a different context:

GI: "Troy is able to raise power from the ring because a) Covenant gave it to him, and b) Covenant's will, his volition, supports what Troy wants to do with the ring (save Elena from dead Kevin)."

And so you're saying that TC did not give HT the ring for any reason other than to save Elena, his volition was not directed toward HT destroying the Arch.

I'm sure he could have used it for other things, as my comment about "desecration" above indicates.

And even Elena, who took the ring in TPTP, could have broken enough Laws with it to eventually rend Time itself.

SRD himself also states on the GI that the only reason she could have done so is if TC willed it unconsciously.

The problem with SRD's theory is that nobody can account for unconscious motivations in order to know that they even exist. Perhaps spending years and thousands of dollars with a trained psychotherapist may root out the truth about such unconscious content. But by that time, it would be too late to save the Land because time moves more quickly there.

The "unconscious volition" theory serves as an ad hoc explanation for apparent inconsistencies that I don't even believe exist to begin with.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I want to add this quote from TPTP to sum up the meaning of SRD's 'Law of Identity' regarding TC and the ring:

You are the white gold. It was not a thing to be commanded, employed well or ill as skill or awkwardness allowed. Now that it was awake, it was a part of him, an expression of himself. He did not need to focus it, aim it; bone and blood, it arose from his passion.

[Orlion]

Here's an interesting quote on the matter from the GI

Boy howdy….

1) Sure, Foul can take the ring and use it. Anybody can. They just can’t use it *enough* to break Foul out of his prison. Two Laws prevent it: the fundamental identification of Covenant with his ring; and the necessity of freedom. Only when Covenant uses excessive wild magic by choice will the Arch of Time fall. And Foul is smart enough to know this. But he’s also smart enough to think of more than one path toward his goal. If someone else (e.g. dead Elena) takes the ring and chooses to use it, s/he may eventually damage enough Laws in enough different ways to make the whole system crumble. (Elena certainly got off to a good start by destroying the Staff of Law.) Foul always has more than one plan at work. He’s always trying to create new possibilities. And he’s always eager to capitalize on new possibilities, even unexpected ones.



(01/22/2006)