Watchmen Ending ***spoilers***

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

From what I gather, the ending to the comic

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has a fake alien craft landing on earth, this illusion created by Ozy to manipulate AmerRuss to cooperate

Can anyone elaborate on this?

mod edit - generally we warn people about spoilers and tag the, within the post.

Ummm, isn't the name of the thread and the spoiler tags enough?

[dANdeLION]

Not exactly. If memory serves,

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A giant alien octopus looking thing was teleported into the city. It was actually a dead (or dying) mutated octopus or something, and I think the military reacted by nuking it, not realizing it wasn't alive. This happened while Dr. Manhattan was on Mars with his ex-gf, Silk Something. She convinced him to bring her back, they see the dead bodies everywhere, and then teleport to Ozzy's lair, where Rorsach and the Owl were already.

I might be off on it as it's been a few years since I last read the comics. There is a graphic novel collecting the 12 comics that can be found pretty much anywhere if you want to read it; it's well worth reading.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

Urm. I've seen many posts on imdb that didn't like the

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new ending in the film

but I personally think it is far, far better and give Snyder and his writing crew a massive high five for changing it, risky business changing such loved works...

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It really flips you on your head and makes sense as a buffer against Manhatten's seemingly limitless power while creating an interesting relational connection between Manhatten and Ozy, and pulling apart the connection between Manhatten and Rorsharch, though the film really didn't show any relationship at all between the two.

[I'm Murrin]

In the graphic novel,

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the Comedian was killed because he discovered something about the plan, relating to a secret island where a lot of disappeared clairvoyants and scientists had been taken to. On the island, they used actual biological specimens along with research into psychic abilities to create the alien/squid-thing hoax; Ozymandias teleported the body into the middle of Manhattan and at the same time unleashed a massive psychic shockwave that killed anyone in the area, the idea being that it would look as though a pan-dimensional being had entered our world and the psychic shockwave was its death cry. The world, seeing that such a threat existed outside our reality, would unite to defend themselves against it.

I do think the new ending is a perfectly good way of providing the same plot device,

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without the slightly dodgy issues provided by having the film's ending rest on the existence of real psychics (besides the fact that the existence of actual psychics undermines the main premise of the story where Manhattan is the one and only person with superpowers, the rest being ordinary people in costumes). It does, however, suffer from the problem of this new threat against which the world unites being man-made and affiliated specifically with America, which the alien plot avoided.

[Worm of Despite]

Urm. I've seen many posts on imdb that didn't like the

Spoiler

new ending in the film

but I personally think it is far, far better and give Snyder and his writing crew a massive high five for changing it, risky business changing such loved works...

Spoiler

It really flips you on your head and makes sense as a buffer against Manhatten's seemingly limitless power while creating an interesting relational connection between Manhatten and Ozy, and pulling apart the connection between Manhatten and Rorsharch, though the film really didn't show any relationship at all between the two.

How can you even say it's far better if you've never read the graphic novel? For me, nothing beats the impact of the graphic novel's ending, because the villain wins and you see it as bodies littering an entire city, blood everywhere, but in the movie what do we get? A CGI effect less impressive than Deep Impact or Armageddon. Seriously. The psychic effect was utter shit.

And to be honest the decision had no balls. They actually were going to put the bodies-everywhere scene, but no, they had to test screen it (test screening is the worst way to improve your film, because it's basically saying, Let the audience decide how to make it, and the audience doesn't know shit). So they take out the bodies, the squid, and replace it was a blue psychic wave. Just like 300, which was sublimely stupid, whenever Snyder lets himself show through Alan Moore's work it is sublimely stupid. Stick to zombie killing, bud.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

It's far better because it stays with the characters...

...it illuminates Dr. Manhatten's journey away from, and later back to, humanity in an amazing light...

...it stays with a character and helps us care deeper, wheras a giant squid thing created on an island doesn't...

...I honestly would have WTF!??? if they had stayed with the comic ending...

...I think this is a case where film needs to depart from book.

[I'm Murrin]

I'd agree with that, Foul. Not seen the film version yet, but the graphic novel just had

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Ozymandias' line about his plan already having happened, then a cut to the bodies everywhere (which implicitly included the people on the street who had been established and given character throughout the body of the novel - the kid, the news-stand owner, the psychologist, and so on).

That was a brilliant way of revealing it and should not have been altered, IMO.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

I'd agree with that, Foul. Not seen the film version yet, but the graphic novel just had

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Ozymandias' line about his plan already having happened, then a cut to the bodies everywhere (which implicitly included the people on the street who had been established and given character throughout the body of the novel - the kid, the news-stand owner, the psychologist, and so on).

That was a brilliant way of revealing it and should not have been altered, IMO.

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Snyder deffinately should have stayed with the cut-to as you described...he did it a little different and it just doesn't have the same dramatic affect it would have, based on your description

But I still think the new ending is far better for the film...

[Worm of Despite]

It's far better because it stays with the characters...

...it illuminates Dr. Manhatten's journey away from, and later back to, humanity in an amazing light...

...it stays with a character and helps us care deeper, wheras a giant squid thing created on an island doesn't...

Manhattan leaves humanity and becomes a God. So I don't get your first point. Why does a blue psychic wave help us "care deeper" than a giant squid? Neither are supposed to make us care. It's the effect, dramatic effect of cutting to bodies everywhere compared to a CGI blue wave. If you read the comic, the illustrations of the carnage of the city, it's breathtaking and one of the real twists and kickers in the entire graphic novel. Just a static cut to bodies. Everywhere. He did it. "I did it!" - Adrian Veidt. Now that's something to high-five about, especially in 80s comics when the villain never wins (and hardly ever does in the 90s, 00s, or hell--in any dramatic work the villain hardly ever wins at that scope). And to me, there's more dramatic thump when you see, silently, the toll before your eyes than a blue psychic wave.

But again, as I've said, it only makes me feel all the more Moore is right when he says the graphic novel is the only medium Watchmen really works in. Especially when the graphic novel is able to handle the Doomsday clock so much better, as well (I won't spoil how it uses it).

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

Like I said, I wish Snyder would have done it the way you descirbe as far as the cut-to and the bodies (there could have been many further away from the initial zone)...

...but having Dr. Manhatten the person become the thing humanity unites against...and having Ozy do a villianous thing that is actually for the good of humanity, and Dr. Manhatten agreeing with him...I mean, wow, great, amazing, perfect! Here is the only actual "super" hero...and he becomes a true hero by becoming the thing humanity unites against...and Ozy becomes a hero because it was his plan...

Did the last scene with Rorshack happen in the comic?

[Worm of Despite]

Yeah. Rorschach's death was the same, but a bigger blood spot on the snow and no symbol from it. Nite Owl also didn't watch; was just Manhattan and Rorschach. And Ozymandias' deed and Dr. Manhattan agreeing with him still remains, despite how the deed is accomplished.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

Nolan's Dark Knight's ending used this motief also...and I think it's great...the only real hero is one who would sacrifice for those he loves, even to the point of becoming a hated pariah...

Despite

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Rory's uncompromising attitude about telling the world the truth

I didn't really understand his death...the deeper why?

[I'm Murrin]

IIRC, Manhattan's "abandonment" of earth at the end of the graphic novel is meant as further reason for humanity to unite on its own terms, rather than simply turn to Manhattan to defend them. In the graphic novel, he leaves simply because humanity needs to learn to live without him (especially since he sees himself losing his humanity as he becomes more god-like).


Rorschach had to die because if he told the world about Veidt being the real villain, they'd not unite in any significant way - they'd kill him then go back to their own squabbles. The threat had to be something they couldn't confront, something otherworldly. Which is why it can't be revealed as a hoax, which Rorschach was determined to do.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

hrm...got it. Heh.

[finn]

But isn't Rory's diary, that has arrived at the newspaper office an untied off thread? It may be in the crank file, but it is nonetheless there and if reported could become its own underground theory/cult.... the implication was that it would be used for a story. A hook left for Watchmen II?

Shouldn't Dr Manhatten seen this?

I've never seen the comix but went to see the movie last night and thoroughly enjoyed it, truer and darker than Batman, lighter and not so lacivious as Sin City.

Only criticism from me was the incidental music was a bit of a lift from Blade Runner, or perhaps a homage?

[Zahir]

Some things...

No, Jon cannot "see" the journal for two reasons. First, that period in time is flooded with tachyons blurring his vision. Second, he can only perceive the future that happens to him. If the journal does not impact him in such a way as he would notice, then he would not perceive it. Given his plans at the end of the story, one would suppose that pretty much covers anything at all that might happen on earth.

Yeah, Rorschach's death was because he was going to reveal the truth. But there's another reason, i.e. why didn't he simply wait and tell the world later? He's certainly smart enough to do so. But of course that wouldn't be in character, for more than one reason. Alan Moore himself in an interview pointed out that Rorschach has a death wish. He longs to die, to leave this existence that for him is nothing but suffering. But he wants to die with what he perceives as honor (Note: Rorschach is not a sociopath for the simple reason that he cares deeply about the world, so much so he needs to impose some sense of order upon it to make it better). He is smart enough to see what must be done, knows he cannot do it, and so goads someone into killing him.

My own view about the ending..

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The lack of a giant squid works for me, as does the blaming of Dr. Manhattan. As a plan it would work because all Ozzy needs is for people to get into the habit of living together in peace. The emotional impact of Nite Owl's reaction to Rorschach's death seemed superior to me, not least because Dan seemed to me the most thoroughly heroic and "good" character. Here was the guy who was Rorschach's friend, his only friend, and the only one to weep for that grim, twisted, dangerous man. He is a man who can and will enjoy the peace Ozzy has created. But Ozzy himself won't. He is left alone. Methinks that last point could and should have been made a little stronger.

Likewise, the very last few shots about Rorschach's journal seem to me to lack the emotional note needed. The journal is the informational equivalent of a land mine--and we should feel someone is about to step on it. I didn't. And methinks that comes down to editing.

Oh, and the old age makeup was startlingly poor.

[The Dreaming]

Yeah, I would say that Rory's death wish was a lot clearer to me in the movie than in the comic. His death has such a tragic nobility. He knows that he needs to die, but he WILL NOT COMPROMISE. He provides such a tantalizing contrast to Veidt.

Honestly, yeah. I don't understand the obsession with psychics that exists in comic books and a HUGE amount of fiction from before this decade. The Comics ending requires a LOT of setup and explanation to make any sense at all, and in the end, it doesn't really make that much. The Movie distilled what was important about the squid, and transmogrified it into something a lot more self contained. It was the right ending for the movie. I'm not convinced the GNs ending was even the right ending for the GN.

And how can you accuse Snyder of wussing out on the ending? If anything he made a lot of scenes a lot more gruesome than they should have been. (Rorshach's story in particular struck me badly in the movie)

Edit: And considering how spoilerific the title of this thread is, I think it's time to forgo the spoiler tags. I'm not going to bother, if you have gone this far into the thread, the tags wouldn't stop you anyway. That, and this is a story that has been around for more than 20 years now. That's close to the statute of limitations.

[Worm of Despite]

The Comics ending requires a LOT of setup and explanation to make any sense at all, and in the end, it doesn't really make that much.

I gotta completely disagree there. The message of both the movie--that some outside factor is faked by Veidt to make humanity bind together--is exactly the same in both mediums; it's only how it's delivered; one is Manhattan (the movie), the other the engineered squid. And neither were that mysterious or imperceptible to me.

And how can you accuse Snyder of wussing out on the ending?

I think a complete wuss out. The bodies-everywhere presentation impacted me much more, but since Snyder actually listened to test audiences (the ineffectiveness of which I've commented on earlier), he removed that impact and replaced it with a CGI wall of blue that picks people up. Didn't impact me at all. Felt like I was watching a disaster effect done better by Armageddon or Deep Impact.

Test audiences said the cut to bodies was too much. But you know, on second thought, Snyder's ending fits perfect for a Snyder movie. It's not Watchmen, or even a capturing of its depth or spirit to me. Certain parts it did right (Manhattan's origin flashback), but others were a cold dance (largely all of it, the graphic novel having more balance, verve, and literariness and clarity; the film, by contrast, was Snyder's work grafted over the frame of a Watchmen likeness).

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The emotional impact of Nite Owl's reaction to Rorschach's death seemed superior to me, not least because Dan seemed to me the most thoroughly heroic and "good" character.

Superior to? I always found that we were the ones observing Rorschach's death, the reader, and I did not need Nite Owl to be outside watching on. The book wasn't about big revelations or "No, Gandalf!" from the characters but our own shock as these scenes unfold behind the scenes of a crumbling world.

[Lord Mhoram]

Lord Foul,

The message of both the movie--that some outside factor is faked by Veidt to make humanity bind together--is exactly the same in both mediums; it's only how it's delivered; one is Manhattan (the movie), the other the engineered squid. And neither were that mysterious or imperceptible to me.

The medium is certainly changed, but when that medium is changed from an outside force (the squid) to one of the film's main characters (Dr. Manhattan), it becomes a shift which is more than superficial.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

I dun just got a hold of the GN of Watchmen...I'll probably have it done by tomarrow night...